Interaction Institute for Social Change | Artist: Angus Maguire

photo by Hunter Lacey

Speaking your truth and using your voice.  It isn’t something that comes naturally for many of us.  Even in the worst circumstances it can be a bridge too far to cross.  And yet… What if?  What if you took that leap?  Would the risk be worth it?

Show Notes:

Is speaking your truth something that comes naturally to you?  Have you ever been too intimidated or maybe even scared to use your voice?  Liz Navarro is a professor, public speaker, writer and communications expert.  She and I both participated in the 2019 Dallas Women’s March and in this episode we sit down to discuss our experiences.

In some ways it was easy for each of us to jump in and get involved.  Yet, there were challenges to participating as well; especially this year.  We each share why it was important for us to individually march this year.

While the march itself was peaceful and full of a sense of camaraderie we acknowledge the underlying fear that participating can be intimidating and that initial fear of the unknown can and probably has prohibited others from participating either now or in the past.

We both recognize that it can continue to get better, but I think we were both pleasantly surprised that (at least at the Dallas March) a fair representation of women and men from all walks of life appeared to be represented.  A hopeful step in the right direction towards equity and everyones voice being heard.

photo by Hunter Lacey

• Many thanks to Hunter Folsom Lacey for allowing me to share her photos from the March. You can find her and her work at:https://hunterfolsom.comhttps://www.instagram.com/hunterfolacey/

* A special thank you to the women who shared their voices with me for on the spot       interviews at the March!

Links:

https://www.liznavarroco.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZrZrLcLR0
interactioninstitute.org

madewithangus.com
https://hunterfolsom.com
https://www.instagram.com/hunterfolacey/

Transcript

photo by Hunter Lacey

Intro: Welcome to “How She Got Here – Conversations with Everyday Extraordinary Women.” It is my belief that every woman has something inside her only she can do. The more we share the stories of other women, who have already discovered their thing, the more it inspires, encourages, and empowers other women to do the same.

photo by Hunter Lacey

Susan: Hey Pod Sisters, I had the great fortune to sit down with my friend Liz Navarro and chat about our experience at the Women’s March this year in Dallas. Liz is a professor, public speaker and writer. Her goal is to help others find and share their voice. She has even helped me with some of my written content. Our hope is that by sharing our experience, you’re encouraged to share your own voice. I also interviewed a few people on the street at the march, and I’m excited to share that raw audio with you too. So without further ado, here is Liz.

Susan:  Well, Liz, this should be a fun experiment this morning. I’ve already told my guests that this is not our typical conversation or typical interview, and I’ve kind of introduced you a little bit, but why don’t you go ahead and tell our audience a little bit about you?

Liz: Yes. Well I’m so excited to get to talk to you today. I am just here I guess as in a lot of different roles. One is that I’m a mom and so that’s like one of my primary places that I probably entered the Women’s March, and another one is that I’m a communications strategist and I’m also a public speaking professor, and so kind of everything that I do centers around the idea of encouraging and empowering people to use their voices. And so that’s I guess kind of the place that I’m entering this conversation from today and maybe part of why I wanted to go to the Women’s March in the first place was so that I could exercise that in my own life and not just in a way that I am working with other people. So that’s where I am today.

photo by Hunter Lacey

Susan: That’s really cool because I kind of felt the same way. I don’t know…When was your first March? Did you do it in 2017 and 2018 and then 2019? Or was this your first one?

Liz: So, this was this one in 2019 was my very first March.

Susan: Ever?

Liz: Yeah, it was my very first March at any time ever, first Women’s March, first any march. And so it was a brand new experience for me. I had wanted to get involved before in both 2017 and 2018 and I didn’t. There were a lot of different reasons why probably. I think, you know, one that is easy is that I had a little baby at home and it was just a logistical thing. I was actually looking back at some of my Instagram posts from 2017 or 2018 and I read that I guess in 2017 my daughter had a fever and it was cold and we stayed home, but this was the year I guess that I first jumped in and got engaged. But I know that you got involved earlier, so I would love to hear about your experience too.

Susan: Yeah. So Will was probably…2017, Will was about two and four or five months, so almost two and a half, and my background as my listeners know, and I won’t go all the way into it, but coming from a women’s college and understanding a little bit more of the women’s movement and women’s history and understanding that we haven’t always gotten it right but it’s always still worth striving for and fighting for, it was something I was thinking about in toying with. I never really intended to go to Washington, DC. More so because I think at the time where we’re at in Dallas, Texas, I wish I had known you then, because I didn’t know anybody who was going. I didn’t know anyone who was going to be participating or involved. Later I found out that I knew somebody going to DC in my family, but even she was kind of very quiet about it and not wanting to rock the boat too much. I’ve kind of thrown all the wheels off since then and be like, “Whatever, this is what I am, this is who I am and this is what I do. So if you don’t like it, great, you can move on.” But that took a while to get there. So in 2017… No, go ahead, go ahead.

Liz: Well, I was just gonna say I think it’s really hard to get there, and you probably touched on one of the biggest reasons why this was my very first year is because in 2017 or 2018, I hadn’t been in Dallas that long and it was the exact same situation. It was a, I believe in this and I believe in the movement and I want to be involved, but I think I’m a little too nervous to show up and be involved by myself, and I didn’t really know at that point who to reach out to to join me. And this year, while I do think I’ve come a little bit further and in where I stand myself and I probably could have been brave enough to show up on my own, I knew that I wouldn’t have to because I’ve kind of plugged myself into a community of women who wanted to be involved. I knew you would be there, I had other friends to go with and that just really helped and it made me think a lot about, you know, other people who might not be there yet and how you reach out to them and kind of give them that invitation to show up but not to feel like they’re showing up alone.

That is such a good point. In 2017, that was one of the hardest things. In fact, I didn’t really make the decision to go—and I didn’t attend the March in Dallas. I attended the one in Austin—and I didn’t make the decision to go until probably, like I had the hotel room booked and everything. But I didn’t really make the decision to go until maybe the week of. And I was like, “Okay, I’m actually going to do this.” And it’s really funny; the reason that I ended up going, it wasn’t…I mean, I kinda thought I might know some people there. I did end up meeting up with randomly an old high school friend and her mom, who I had not seen in years who is also from South Carolina who wound up in Austin randomly. But it was just one of those things I would…My husband asked me of all people, he said, “You know, in 30, 40 years when Will asks you, where were you that day…” Oh, I’m getting teary, “…what are you going to tell him?” And I was like, “Okay, well that solidifies that. I’ll be back later.”

Liz: “I’ll see you later.”

Susan:  Yeah, exactly. “I’ll just go ahead and leave now.” And so I was…I’ll be honest, I knew that I was meeting up with some people, but I was terrified, I don’t think…No, Charlottesville hadn’t happened at that point and some of the other crazy stuff hadn’t happened yet, but was that side of me that I thought, “Will there be people who show up at this March and am I going to be safe?” I remember like veteran protesters, which is kind of a funny thing to say because I’m like, “Well, I don’t really totally feel like I’m protesting because…” Especially at the first one it was more like a feeling of camaraderie and like, “Okay, we’re all in this together.” And I had a 65 year old woman who was amazing, who I did not know, total stranger bought me a Mimosa before the March in the hotel lobby. I mean it was…I met some of the coolest women and some of the neatest people I wish I had kept in touch with them. But I remember reading some of like old school protestors saying things like, “Write an emergency phone number on your arm in fairly permanent marker in case this…Have a handkerchief ready in case there’s tear gas.” And I’m like, “Wait, what am I doing?” And of course—I shouldn’t say, of course, I guess we’re very lucky that nothing bad came of that and it was very much a peaceful situation. But there was definitely that underlying fear of what is this going to be? What is it going to turn out to look like?

And obviously, I mean you can look back on pictures from that year. And it wasn’t like that at all. And it was probably one of the best things I’d ever done. But last year I didn’t feel like I needed to do it. I didn’t feel like it was necessary. I felt like I was doing the work that I needed to do at that point. And then this year I just want to be re-involved and re-invigorated and re-engaged with the actual March and kind of read up on some of that energy. But what were you gonna say?

Liz: Well, I was going to say when you were talking about the veteran protesters and just preparing for the worst case scenario, that I think one of the reasons why I went into this year without that fear anxiety is probably because of the tone that was set in the first two Marches. I did feel like even though I wasn’t there, that there was just a sense of overall camaraderie and coming together and uniting in a way. But this year of course, was interesting because there were a lot of different factors go into this year’s Women’s March somewhat that were divisive and controversial. I guess, despite all of that, I didn’t feel unsafe, but I definitely had to think about, you know, why am I showing up? Like you talked about why this year you wanted to go back and be reenergized, and I had to really think about what do I want to stand for and why am I showing up now to this March and what is it representing for me and what is that representing for other people too?

Susan: That is such a good point.

Liz: Yes. I don’t have an exact answer for that. You know, I know why I wanted to March this year and it was not…I don’t think I was necessarily Marching against something. I think I wanted to March in support of something. I have two daughters and so I think there are definitely at the center, like you told that story about what are you going to say to Will when he asks you where you were and that thought always goes through my head with my daughters, you know, when they’re grown up and they asked me questions about did you stand up for women’s voices in this moment? What was it like to go through the moment of MeToo? And for me, I’m building a business around telling other people to use their voices, and I’m teaching students to stand up and use their voices.

So it was so important to me to make that statement to myself and to my daughters. But I think the biggest thing at the heart of the Women’s March for me is just that really central, very simple but game changing ability for women to be able to say yes or no to things and when they do say yes or no to things, whether it’s their careers or their lifestyle or their bodies, whatever that is, that they get to make that decision and they get to be heard when they make that decision. And for me, I think that was the simplest way to boil down why I wanted to March this year and what I wanted to stand for. So that’s kind of where I came in to this year.

Susan: And I really appreciate that thought. One of the reasons besides the camaraderie, you know, at the time we were in a government shutdown. And one of the things that happened in that shut down— and I don’t know how many people know this or how many people pay attention to what’s going on policy-wise or whatever, but one of the things that happened during the shutdown was the Violence Against Women’s Act expired. And you can kind of Google what that’s about, but it’s basically a program that provides funding to other organizations to help women who’ve been in horrible, horrible situations. And since the government has reopened, that was one of the stipulations in the Bill that they just put for that they would reinstate that funding. So it’s back up operational running. But going back to the MeToo movement, there’s just so many things I hear.

I hear people say things like, “Oh, well, women are totally equal now and blah, blah blah and why are you still marching? And what is the point of this?” And I realized that there has been so many things that have come from women’s movements over the years and there are so many places where we are included now, and I don’t want to minimize that, I don’t want to say that we haven’t accomplished things in this world because we obviously have, but I just think that there is so much still to accomplish. And going back to the whole MeToo thing, I think one of the things we have to think about is how women are treated from a policy standpoint. And that’s not just at the federal level, it’s at the local level, it’s at the state level. And especially in Texas—and I can’t remember the number. I need to go back and look it up and I’ll post it in the notes. I’ll post a link to this study that I’m talking about, but the number of rape kits that are untested in the state of Texas, and in all states. This is not just a Texas thing. This happens nationwide. And how some of them, you know… Go ahead, sorry.

Liz: Oh, I was just gonna confirm that. Yeah, there’s a huge backlog everywhere were like a person goes in with this horrible situation and have to have a rape kit conducted on them and then it just sits in a warehouse.

Susan: Or sometimes they’re destroyed. Some of them have been destroyed.

Liz: Wow.

Susan: Yeah, and so knowing that that was happening at the same time and the March was coming back up, I was like, “There’s just still so much to fight for and to raise our voices about and to be strong about and to think about.” That was one of the big things for me this year was, “Yeah, we’ve done a lot, but there’s still a lot to be done.” And as far as the women’s movement itself, there’s still a lot within the women’s movement that I think we need to think harder about: who’s included? Who’s excluded? Who’s at the front of the line? Who’s at the back of the line?” And I know you and I spoke about that, and I’ll link this as well. You and I spoke about that New York Times podcast episode about the Women’s March and how it went down in the earlier days, and are still a lot of improvement that needs to be done even today.

Liz: Yeah, and for me that was a big question too coming into this March, like I want to make sure that my Marching is making an inclusive statement, right? And I really had to think about that before I attended the March in Dallas, I had to think about what was going on nationally who felt excluded from the March and was, you know, my Marching somehow making a statement of support in, you know, excluding those people. And that’s definitely not where my intention was. And I didn’t feel that they at the Dallas March, I don’t know if you did, but I felt like there was a really strong camaraderie and that there were a lot of different types of people represented. And so I guess I felt validated and showing up for that March that there were a lot of likeminded people who are standing there in the same way that I was in just wanting to make a change in wanting to continue this forward progress in wanting to make women continue to be heard and to include everybody in that movement.

Susan: Yeah, for sure. I will say the one thing that I noticed this year that I didn’t see in Austin that I for sure didn’t see in pictures from Washington, and I don’t know if this was really the first year or if it happened last year, because I really don’t know. I need to go back and look and see if there’s way to figure this out, but there were a lot more men than I expected to be there. And the one in Austin I don’t think I saw… I saw maybe two, and I was really surprised to see men at this March this year.

Liz: I mean, I think it was great. Some of them had my favorite signs that I saw in the March. I saw the—I don’t know if it was a couple. It was a man and a woman marching next to each other and the man was holding a sign and it said, “Another day, another dollar,” and the woman was holding aside and it said, “Another day, another eighty cents,” and I mean I laugh because the signs were funny. That situation isn’t, but I think that the men who were there this year, we’re making a really strong statement. I saw families marching with their signs. I saw a father and son that were there marching. I mean because that’s the thing; the women’s movement I think is not just about women being heard in a certain way. It’s also allowing men to be who they want to be in the way that they want to be. And so it’s a really important consideration, I think, to make that men are as included in this movement as women are.

Susan: That’s a very good point, that there is really room in this movement for all people and all allies for sure.

Liz: And I know that probably not everybody feels that way. I think that’s one of the challenges now for the movement moving forward is how does that intention get translated to everybody that wants to find a place within the movement? And it seems like that’s a big conversation that needs to be add in reaching out to people everywhere. And I don’t know a good answer to that at this point, but I think conversations like this one are at least opening the door or hopefully opening the door to people who might not feel included, but who wants to be in some way.

Susan: Well, and I think some of these conversations even start at the most basic level and what I mean by that is if you are a heterosexual cisgender woman, that these conversations kind of start in your home with your spouse as far as your husband may be an ally, but he might say things sometimes that don’t totally jive or there may be some accidental mansplaining happening and things like that. So maybe even gentle conversation in your own home is not always a bad place to start with those thoughts and those conversations and just see where that goes.

Liz: No, I think that’s really true. I have to like jump in and give a shout out to my husband because I am lucky enough that I really feel very supportive and like I have a very strong partner in this, you know, the reason he didn’t go to the Women’s March is because we didn’t want to take our two girls out in the cold so he stayed home and watched them. But had we not made that decision, I think he would have been marching right there too. But, that’s just a privilege that I get to have, and I know that that’s not the case in every home or in every partnership. So I do think that those conversations definitely need to start in the home. And if it’s just kind of figuring out how and when to have them, I that for me having kids has opened up my wanting to make these conversations really, really intentional as well. And especially—not especially having daughters because it’s just the same if you have a son, but really making space for talking about what is it to be a woman? What is it to be a man? What do you get to stand up for and how do you just get to be the type of person that you want to be and live the lifestyle you want and love the people that you want and have the career you want? And everybody should have access to that. I think, you know, that was really central in the people around me at the march this year. I think that was something that everybody could come together and unite within. So it’s just bringing that often and giving those conversations of platform.

Susan: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And I want to go back to a little bit of what you were talking about, about using your own voice because I know that there’s going to be some people—some of my audience are going to be listening to this who this may energize them and they’re going to want to know how to get involved in where to get involved. And I know one of the groups that I was there with actually this year, there was a brunch beforehand with Ignite. And Ignite’s been mentioned on the podcast before in previous episodes, but if you haven’t caught any of those, Ignite is a… It starts at a… I think it actually starts in the high schools and also goes into college, but it’s really encouraging of young women and femmes to get involved in policy and in politics in general at any level, be it local, state, federal, and getting them involved in what’s going on in their community and it’s bipartisan. And I just want to say that not everybody’s going to agree with this, but you know, we’re all women and at the end of the day we’re not always gonna agree. Even within the movement there’s just going to be things we don’t agree on. And that’s okay. We’re not supposed to be the same person and we’re not supposed to agree on everything. But going back to sharing your voice, every voice really does matter and everybody deserves a voice at the table.

Liz: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I also think that, you know, some people’s fear in marching in something like this might be that they’re making a statement that they don’t want to make, right? Or that other people are interpreting their marching in a way that they didn’t intend and you know, to me the important part then about using your voice is to be able to say, like, to be able to define that for yourself and say like, “This is why I am Marching. And this is who I’m representing,” and if you’re not willing to stand up and say that, then other people can assume or misinterpret your intentions. So I do think it’s really important to be able to say that and to use your voice to make those statements so that you know, if you’re fearful that you’ll be misinterpreted, then you have to say what you mean and say how you intend to use that position that you have. I think it’s so important.

Susan: Yeah. And I really appreciate that you’re doing this everyday kind of in your career, both as a professor and as a content writer and even helping me with some of the things that I’ve done, and I look forward to working with you further on these because it really does help to have a second set of ears and eyes and to have that camaraderie with other people because sometimes it’s hard. It’s hard to stand up when others around you aren’t. And I know that there are people who are gonna listen to this and they’re like, they feel alone. And this is off the Women’s March, but it spawned from the Women’s March, which was something that I attended called the United State of Women in California, and it was very much, you know, a lot of this women’s movement stuff is considered progressive and all of that. And I think the United State of Women really had a very progressive slant towards it. But finding events like that or conferences like that that are about women…It can even be, I would argue, a women’s retreat at your church if you, if you do that or your synagogue or your mosque; just camaraderie with other women and sharing your voice and starting there. It really does help to have that network around you of likeminded people. And I think sometimes in this generation or where we are in history, that can be hard to find. But you were gonna say something.

Liz: Well, I was going to ask you that once you started finding that network was a, your experience that, you know, once you found that one or two really strong connections that they started to come to you more often. That was definitely the case for me. You know, once I finally put myself out there a little bit and started trying to surround myself. Like go to those little meetings just like you talked about, you know, just little local, small. I want to be around other supportive women who are maybe going through a similar life experience as me. Like you and I just had this conversation about when we both became new moms and finding other women who are going through that experience too. And you know, my experience in doing that was that once I started making one or two connections that those kind of rippled out and I found myself engaged in a bigger network and that empowered me then to be able to say I am going to go march this year and I have a lot of people in my network that I know are going to be there too. So it was a really important step for me to take that started out very small, just like I love the examples you gave of just kind of putting yourself in that position to find other people who can be supportive of you.

Susan: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say especially now in the world of social media, I think this is actually somewhere where social media helps because you can find a lot of these groups online. I’ll just throw this out there right now, feel free to reach out to me via private message or email and I’m happy to try to get you connected wherever you are. I feel like I’m at this point now where I probably know—okay, maybe not North Dakota or South Dakota, but I have a fairly good connection, especially in bigger cities, and those surrounding suburb type areas. And even in my hometown in Spartanburg, South Carolina—shout out!—these groups exist. It’s just sometimes it’s really plugging in and finding them. That can be a little bit of a struggle in the beginning, but once you’re there…

I know there’s one group in Dallas I’m very involved with, the Texas Women’s Foundation, formerly the Dallas Women’s Foundation and I’m on one of the committees for the foundation now, but it’s really funny. Anytime I’m involved with something that’s going on with them and I get together with these women, it’s like, “Oh my gosh, these are my people and I’m home and these are my sisters and this is fantastic and feeding off that energy sometimes is really helpful and really important when the days get long because sometimes they just do, even in just regular life. And I think, you know, there were friends that once I started—I mean, I’ll just be frank—once I started speaking out and being more open and honest about stuff, there were friends that kind of backed away a little bit and that’s okay. You know, that’s what they need to do and some of it was hurtful, but making the switch for me and being more outspoken was really one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself for sure.

Liz: And of course you know, your goal too is to give other people a platform through the podcast as well. And I think that is so important to me because I think one thing is that, you know, especially with the women’s movement or with anything, it’s really easy for us to focus on all the differences that we have that we’re bringing to the table. But I think something that you do really well in focusing on telling the stories of women or connecting with other women is that in those stories we can find all these places where we are really similar and not just be the places that we’re different. And I think, I guess that’s just a big lesson and a big part of the women’s movement is that we can look at it at face value and see maybe some of the stances that if you don’t outwardly agree with them, it could be a nonstarter for you to feel like you need to get involved.

But at least my experience while I was there is that while I’m sure like you already brought this up, women are going to disagree across the board. It doesn’t mean we’re all marching and we all have a 100 percent of the same beliefs or intentions or values. But I think that there is enough shared experience and if we really try to put ourselves in position where we’re getting to know other people and we’re listening to other people. We’re not just using our voices, but we’re listening to other people’s too. But, we have more in common than we have that’s different. And I’m trying to find those places too so that I can be able to connect to other women who aren’t sharing all of my values or who don’t prioritize all of the same things as I do, but we have similar life experiences that there’s just a way for us to connect, and I think that’s really important and I think that’s probably an intention behind the movement that’s not always practiced perfectly, but that it’s an overall goal that everybody’s trying to move toward.

Susan: You know, I really hope so. And I hope that’s something that we continue to work on because I know one of the bigger criticisms of the women’s movement since its inception, if you go back to the original one in our country,  the meeting at Seneca Falls back in the 1800s, was the exclusion or putting to the side of minorities. And at that point it was African American women and now it’s obviously much broader than that, but I want to make sure…

Liz: But it’s still a challenge.

Susan: It is still a challenge and it shouldn’t. From my standpoint, I don’t understand why people still act that way or behave that way. I want to say that that is something that I don’t condone by any stretch of the imagination, and that there are some voices that might be needing to be more elevated at the moment. Because I remember seeing a picture and it was talking about equality and there was a fence and there were people looking over the fence and each person had the same box, but they were at different heights so there were people who still couldn’t see over the fence. And equality is giving everybody the same box, but you’re still not at an equal level. Equity is giving somebody a big enough box for themselves so that they can all see over the fence. And I just want people to think about that going forward as far as with what they’re doing and how they’re sharing their voice and when they’re sharing their voice and who they’re giving their voice to. And this is something that on this podcast I think about regularly. And I know somebody’s going to say, “Well, you guys are just two white women sitting around talking about this.” And there have been multiple…I hope that I can insert some of the other voices that I caught. Because I ask people throughout the march, I stopped and talked to a few people and got asked them, you know, why are you here and why are you Marching today?

[28:37 – 32:10]

Susan: There were several people who I asked if they would be willing to do this and because of their job or their position or whatever, they didn’t feel comfortable doing it. And so I just want to make the point that that’s how I feel is that I think everyone’s voice matters, everyone deserves to be heard in this. And I know we keep bringing this back up, but we are really all in this together because if one of us fails, we all fail. This is not a situation where, “Oh yay! I succeeded it.” It really in the end it doesn’t work like that. And I think we’ve seen that. I think we’ve seen how that works throughout history, you know, with my understanding of women’s history. Going to a women’s college, you learn a lot more women’s history. You see how it’s manifested throughout time and there are still so many things that we have gotten wrong. And I just really want to reiterate that I hope this is the turning point. I really do have hope because I see it’s not where it needs to be, but I do see more women of all backgrounds being included and I just hope that something that we can build upon and continue to strengthen

Liz: And that’s why I love talking to you because you are always able to bring it back to that place of just your really strong intention to be able to share other people’s stories, to make everyone feel included and to just do it in a really smart and thoughtful way, so…

Susan: Well that is very nice of you. I appreciate that. I don’t always feel like it happens, but that’s what the goal is for sure. If you, coming from a professor’s standpoint, if there was something that you could tell women who want to share their voice, who are scared, like where would you even start?. And I know that’s such a broad question because not all of us are in the same place. Not all of us come from the same place, but I’ll just make it me. I was an 18-year-old kid. I found myself at a women’s college somewhat by luck I realize now. And I was really forced into leadership roles because there wasn’t anybody else to do it other than women, like that’s what happens when you go to a women’s college, you’re forced into positions that you wouldn’t normally volunteer for because women are the only ones there to do it.

If I had not had that experience, you know, it went dormant for a few years and then the idea of this podcast and all of that kind of brought it all back around, back a full circle if you will. But I know that there are women out there who’ve never, never used their voice, never thought…Some have been told—okay, a lot had been told that it’s not our place. And sometimes they’re actually told that and then sometimes they’re subliminally told that through other messages. So how do we continue to nurture women to share their voice? What can we, I guess maybe not what can women do who aren’t trying to voice, what can women who are sharing their voice already who are in positions of privilege, be it because they have a platform or they’re in a shortened position at work or whatever, like what is it as women that we can do to continue amplifying and holding that door back and open for other women coming behind us?

Liz: I think, I mean that’s a great question. One thing that, I guess I would start with the place of like it’s obvious that there’s so many mediums now for you to be able to give yourself a platform. And so whether it’s just exactly what you did is creating your own podcast, and you didn’t even know how to create a podcast, but you decided to do it and you did it and now you have one and now you’re creating this space for other women to share their stories. And looking at you, it makes it seem like it’s so simple to do to just provide a platform to other people, but there’s so many of us who would just get stopped at the fact of, “Well, I don’t know how to do that, “or “Should people be listening to me and my story?” Or “Is anybody even going to come in and listen to this?” But I don’t know what your experience is but mine has been that anytime I’ve taken that risk to give myself a new platform or authentically tell a story about my experience, for example, last year I decided to apply to give a Ted Talk just because I thought it was something that would be challenging and that would be beneficial and that would be fun and that would be hard and it proved to be all of those things, but giving myself that platform, it spoke to a lot of different people that I didn’t necessarily know would be the audience. The other people came and said like, “Now I feel like I’m empowered to give myself a platform too” or “how did you do that? I think that’s something that I would be able to do,” or “you sharing your story really helped me kind of validate my own.” And so I guess what I would say is that women who are in that position who already have a platform, I think they need to be really thoughtful about who they’re inviting and giving that space to and making sure that it’s representative of a lot of different types of stories and stories that are not always the ones that are told.

And then secondly, for the people who don’t have a platform, like I would just say make one, give yourself one. And that’s easier said than done, but there are so many spaces, whether it’s just writing a post on a blog, creating a podcast, writing an Instagram caption. I think that most people who have taken the risk to say, “I’m going to put this out there as myself and I’m going to do it just for the sake of sharing this story with other people.” I think the experience is pretty much across the board that someone hears that, sees that, it resonates with them and then they feel empowered to get to do the same thing, so that’s where I would start. What do you think about that, Susan? You’ve done it before.

Susan: I’m pondering what you’re saying and of course, being the writer and speaker that you are, you say it so eloquently, and I will make sure to link your Ted Talk. Everyone should hear your Ted Talk. It was really phenomenal. It was one of the first things that I listened to once our friend, Caytie, web introduced us over email, and it people just need to listen. It’s amazing. And I thank you for sharing your voice. And I think you’re right. I guess at the end of the day we came to share our stories about the Women’s March, but I’m realizing now that what we’re really talking about and what this all boils down to is taking a risk. And it’s a calculated risk, but I think. I think that’s what we’re talking about is being vulnerable and putting ourselves out there and risking a little bit, and I think you have to take those chances and when you don’t take those chances in life, it’s stagnant. And I think when you take risks, although they’re hard and they’re challenging, many times they’re worth it and you end up…Even if it’s a risk that fails, it flops, you end up learning something from it and you end up being a better person on the other side. And I hadn’t really thought about it being about taking a risk until now.

Liz: Yeah, but it is one, right? I mean it is just showing up at a March, putting yourself out there, being willing to clash with other people, being willing to even risk your safety or your comfort. I think that’s a step that for me. It probably did prevent me from going to the first two Marches and this year for a lot of different reasons I felt more emboldened and more empowered to show up in that way. But it is a little bit of a risk. And I think for a lot of people just having a community of support, knowing somebody who’s there, knowing that it’s helped other people along the way, I think all of those things start to make the risk, like you said, a little bit more calculated, a little bit safer. And so I do think that, you know, even when someone else is the one who is using their voice, I think it is opening a door for other people and giving them some permission to use their’s too. At least that’s what I hope.

Susan: Yeah, me too. I really do hope that those that feel like they need permission because sometimes as women we feel like we do need to ask for permission for things that I feel like I do hope we’re holding that door open because really somebody hold that door open for us. At the end of the day, I mean we’re not the start of this. We’re surely not the end of this. I was thinking about this last night and I really realized that there are women who have come before us, that this has been their life’s work and I’m realizing now that it’s kind of turned into my life’s work on accident. This was never… I never thought I’d have to do this. I thought we were past this, but I hope that for future generations that this is something that we just continue to move the bar and to move the goalpost again, sports analogies. But yeah, I think that’s a good place to end. Do you have anything that you definitely want to talk about that we missed?

Liz: I think that’s a good place to end too. I think that brings everything full circle.

Susan: Cool. Well, I love it and I appreciate you doing this with me today. It’s so much more fun to have somebody to chat with rather than do it myself and just start rambling about stuff for, you know, 30, 45 minutes. So thanks for coming on and chatting with me. We should do this again more often.

Liz: I had so much fun. I always liked talking to you. I mean, that’s probably why we like working together so much because I can just sit down with you at a coffee shop for a couple of hours and then say, “You know what, where did we start here? Where do we need to go next?”

Susan: I know. And I’m sitting here in my closet office and I’ve got my coffee. So I had my coffee with me so you know, it worked out really well. I’m really glad you could do this with me today.

Liz: Me Too. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Outro: Pod Sisters, I really hope that this episode left you encouraged. I know it might be a little intimidating or even scary to share your voice in the beginning and that’s okay. As you heard, we were nervous too. Please don’t ever hesitate to reach out to me. I’m more than happy to try and get you plugged in wherever you are. Your voice matters and like I said, if one of us fails, we all fail. You can do it and we’re here rooting you on. Until next time, I’ll see you soon.