Marilyn Kay Hagar is an expressive arts therapist and dream worker. She is also, most recently, an author. Her book, Finding the Wild Inside, encourages us to discover that wildly creative, place inside that knows there is more to life than we are currently living. Our society begs us to look outward for life’s meaning and purpose, but our inner lives are the true source of that deeper knowing.

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Transcript

Susan: Well, Marilyn, I am just so excited for you to join us today on the podcast. And I have read your book, and I have so many questions and so much of it, oddly enough, has resonated with where I am in life right now. When I read the first half of Life and then into the middle part of Life, I was blown away. And then finishing it, I said, “Wow, there’s just so much that I have to look forward to, both good and hard, I think.” But before I just go all over the place and jump in. I want you to share with my audience a little bit about yourself and who you are.

Marilyn: Yes, well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It’s just a pleasure to have this opportunity to talk and get my message out a little further than my little country home here up in Northern California. Most important things I want to say about myself, which may sound odd, is that I’m 74 years old so I have lived a lot of my life already. I was born in…Actually, my family roots are in rural Nevada. And I feel like those roots have kept me very close to the earth and very close to nature all my life. So I grew up in Southern California, went to school in Santa Barbara and college, kept moving north to the Bay Area, then moved way up here in Northern California to the little town of Mendocino about 40 years ago, and I’ve been up here ever since.

I raised my family here. I have three beautiful sons, and now I have four wonderful little grandsons. And so I am still working. I operate a creative retreat at my property in Mendocino at this point in time and do creative sessions with people. I still see a few clients and groups and workshops.

Susan: Yes, and I for sure wanted to dive in and talk a little bit more about that in a minute, but first, Marilyn, correct me if I’m wrong, but this is your first book.

Marilyn: It is my first book. And I’m very proud that at 74, I actually… I started writing my book seriously when I was 66. And it took five years of very intense writing and that’s something I surprised myself with. It was something I always wanted to do, but just didn’t find what it was I was writing about. I’ve done a lot of different writing. But yes, my first book at 74

Susan: Well, it is fantastic. And I am so glad that you put it out into the universe to share. There’s just so much that I identify with in this book with some of my own things that I’ve gone through in the past couple of years in creating this podcast, and why this podcast was created came from a time in life that was hard, and it was born out of something that was difficult. And this was the fruit of what came out. This was what was born out of that, I guess for lack of a better word pain. That sounds…It wasn’t as painful. But that’s the only other way I know to describe it and share with us. What is it that you most want readers to take away from this book because I have so many pages underlined. You talk a lot about flow and light and darkness within ourselves and not necessarily that light equals good and darkness equals bad. It just kind of is. I have been studying myself before I found your book, which I thought was quite fascinating, I found an old – he is older—an old Franciscan monk by the name of Richard Rohr, who lives in New Mexico. And so when I was reading some of your stuff from your book, I saw a lot of what I had discovered from him also coming from your perspective, and I thought your language choices were quite interesting. And when you said flow, I went, “Yes, yes, we are all connected in this way.” But I’m talking all about your book., I want you to share what you want us to know about your book.

Marilyn: Well, I’m actually really pleased to hear number one, that you read my book. Thank you so much for doing that. It’s really been a pleasure to me hearing how people are responding to my book. It came kind of wanting to gather the harvest of my own life after living all these years. I wanted to trace this thread of my inner life and cement for myself where it had taken me and of course, I mean, none of us enters the arts without some judge in there saying, “Why are you doing this?” or, you know, even, “who cares about your life, Marilyn?” And I just had to keep writing through that voice, knowing that we have so much in common. And in this day and age, that, to me is one of the most important messages that I hope people take from my book, that when we read about another person’s life, it triggers inside us similar processes, because we are not that different. In many ways, our differences are more on the surface, though we think that’s the whole story. So my book is about stepping beneath the level of the surface, and looking at that underground river that’s going on in each and every one of our lives and honoring that in a way that our culture doesn’t necessarily hold, as precious as I have found it.

I think, you know, in this culture, we are totally enamored with the light of the mind, our rational self. We want to look at everything and we want to examine it in detail. And we’ve gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from doing that. But there is this whole other part of ourselves that exists in the shadows, in the twilight, and in the darkness. And rather than seeing things in all their tiny pieces, this other part of us wants to see them as a whole. And our rational mind would just soon say that other part of us doesn’t exist. But you know, like the stars that still shine in the daytime, even though we can’t see them, that part of us is there and it’s affecting us in every way. And when we don’t pay attention, we are living on the half of our human potential.

So that’s what I hope people take from my book. I hope that it brings a conversation inside themselves that the stories that I tell about my life and the suggestions that I make at the end of the chapters, to my expressive arts therapy suggestions to explore these ideas from this chapter in your own life, I hope that’s what people take, and that it’s an offering and a gift that we all understand how much we actually have in common.

Susan: I agree with that. And finding those at the end of every chapter was very helpful for me. I don’t think that naturally I would have gone to expressive art in order to see some things that I think I needed to see in my life. I’m very good about reading and rushing on to the next book, and not even always contemplating what I have just read. It’s more…It goes back to that intellectual, just the more information, the more information and then just the taking and the taking and taking, and not always contemplating what I’m taking in, if that makes sense.

Marilyn: That makes total sense. I think we all do that in this culture.

Susan: And I really appreciate that your way, or one of the ways that you help us walk through in your book is, this expressive art therapy to me, reminded me of a practice of some kind in order to get into that depth within yourself. I know that is your main practice. And I hope that’s an okay word to use. I hope that that makes sense. Do you have other practices out there? I felt like there were a few that you kind of talked about in the book. One, besides the expressive art therapy was also the time that you spent with Keith.

Marilyn: Right.

Susan: Would you share a little bit about that? Was Keith a specific therapist? Was he also an expressive art therapist? Was he like a spiritual director, or kind of all of the above?

Marilyn: I would say in some regards, it was all of the above but by certification, he was a psychotherapist. However, his therapy had a great deal to do with body energy. So it was a somatic body focus therapy. It wasn’t so concentrated on the mind and the stories we tell ourselves with our minds, but rather what is our body trying to say to us. And you know, to me this the same thing, the arts come from the body, we do them from the body. And I would like to talk— I won’t say that now. But I would like to talk about the accessibility of expressive arts therapy, like when you say, “I wouldn’t necessarily go there.” So let’s talk about that at some point.

Susan: Well, let’s talk about it now. Let’s go ahead and get into that. I would love to.

Marilyn: Okay, but I don’t want to forget to say the rest about Keith. So, I feel like we all get alienated from the arts in this culture because we think of them as product and performance. And very early in our lives, I mean, by the age of five, six, seven, it can happen that early, that we discover that through our natural expression, you know, little kids just scribble on the paper, they don’t care what it looks like, and their imagination is flowing with what it is, whether it looks like it or not. And then there’s a point early, early, where an adult looks at it, or a teacher looks at it and says, “Hmm, what’s that? You know, it doesn’t look like that,” or “do it this way.” And it all gets focused on this accurate expression, rather than of what you know, like if it’s a boat, how does a boat actually look rather than this purple, flowing thing out there somewhere in the blue?

We lose our ability and we also become shameful about our attempts to express ourselves with the arts. You know, we get in school, there’s a kid who has a natural ability to the draw, and the teacher gives that child a lot of attention, their thing goes up on the board. And we very early learn that maybe ours doesn’t match the teachers expectations or isn’t as good as someone else. And because it’s such an essential expression that comes from us as human beings, when we get pressed down about that, like we’re not good enough, this whole realm of shame around it evolves, and we just decide that we will give the art making ability or the music making ability or the dance ability to the gifted few. And when we cut ourselves off from that basic human expression, we cut ourselves off from so very much.
So that’s been what I’ve dedicated my life to is, we are all creative because it comes with being human. And much of what I’m trying to teach Is that it’s, it’s liberating for an adult who thinks they can’t draw to start doing it. And I was one myself. I didn’t come to this because I was always an artist or a musician or a writer. I came to it because there was something deep inside me that drew me to express in those ways, whether I felt I could do with it or not. And it has been a major gateway to my inner self. So I just would recommend even that very first exercise in my book to open a, you know, have an art journal, open the page and scribble on the first page, and just start. It doesn’t take talent.
Once I learned that the art I was making was more about what the art was saying to me than about what it looked like, it became this open door to my inner self. So that’s really, really important to me. And I just feel like when we cut off our artistic self, we cut off a playful part of ourselves, we cut off a spontaneous part of ourselves. We cut off looking at our lives as a blank piece of paper and what wants to go on it. There are just so many things that we don’t know we’re cutting off when we think we’re not creative. So that’s my little speech about that.

But I do want to go back to your question about Keith, because that was so important to me as a woman. I feel like in our culture, I don’t know how many of you women feel really comfortable in our own bodies and own our energy, our sexual energy as our own, that somehow it’s so connected to relationship and the masculine. And the whole images of what of our society of what femininity is, what we should look like, what we should act like, what it means to be “sexy.” All those things are so repressive to women. I don’t know how many of us really own that that energy is ours, and it grounds us in the world.

And that was the great gift of that therapy I did for many years with Keith. It helped me to use my body to understand first of all, you know, through body sensation. It’s not intellectual. It was like, you know, say a sentence, what does your body feel like? Is it hot, cold, tingling? I mean, physical feelings? And then beginning to understand, you know, when I was angry, where is that anger in my body? A gut level kind of thing, you know? So that eventually, through that work, I came to accept my own body, the energy and, you know, feel like my body actually communicates things to me that my mind doesn’t really know. And it’s back to that rational mind being the most important thing in our culture. Our body is rich with messages for us, but we don’t know how to listen to it.

So that was the main thing for me. And I think I say in that chapter about how we women live with this split in our sexuality, we either have this virginal aspect where we’re not supposed to be sexual, or we have the slut aspect where we’re too, too involved in that energy. And we’ve lived with that split for centuries and centuries and centuries. So it was so important to me to finally understand my own energy inside my own body and that it’s mine, that doesn’t belong to anyone else, but me. And I can use it however I want to use it and it can communicate with me and I can communicate with it. And it is what grounded means. So that was really an important time in my life.
Susan: That is beautiful the way you just said. If I’m understanding this correctly, it really brought your mind and your body back together as one, instead of separating them like I think we often do.
Marilyn: Yes. And what I didn’t say there is that—thank you for saying that—It brought my mind and my body, and once my mind and body were together, my spiritual self became a physical thing rather than an eerie thing.

Susan: Oh, wow.

Marilyn: It is like heaven and earth coming together. And this is the feminine spirituality that was also split many years ago in our very early origins. You know, when a woman named Anne Bearing wrote a book, The Dream of the Cosmos. And in that book, she talks about how when we humans move from a consciousness where the Great Mother was everything. She was the earth, the sky, everything to humans at that period of time back probably in the matriarchal times. We moved from that consciousness where the Great Mother was everything to a consciousness where a transcendent God became the maker of everything rather than being everything. Nature and spirit were torn asunder. And we’ve been living with that. And as women how that came out, because women, because of our bodies, because we give birth, because we are the creative force that comes through, we women got attached with the nature part. And as the spirit part, the mind part rose, there was a denigration of women and of nature and all that is unfolding.

And so when my body and my physical self and mind made this healing, the heaven and earth coming together, my spirituality just became whole and material. It wasn’t split anymore. And that was such an incredible gift to me, and many years in coming. I mean it, you know, it takes a lot of living life and being able to move enough out of the cultural message for we women to really experience that and I am so grateful for that work that I did at that time that helped me come to that.

Susan: Yes. And I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but it was the thing—and I don’t want to spoil the book. But you had something happened in life that almost force…And I don’t know if this happens to everybody, I have found that this is how I have found myself there as well. And it wasn’t the same thing. It was just the way 2016 just kind of rocked my world and in so many different ways, not just the most obvious but so many different ways that I think I was forced to rethink some things in life and spirituality—not spirituality, I will say church was one of those things that I had already come to some conclusions. And then because of that, I was almost forced to make more conclusions, if that makes sense. Was that what moved you to the second half of life ,was that one rocking moment, or did you feel like it was a combination of other things?

Marilyn: Okay, so I am not worried about spoiling my book.

Susan: Oh, okay.

Marilyn: I just want my message out.

Susan: Okay.

Marilyn: So I would like to hear what part you’re seeing as that.

Susan: Was it your divorce?

Marilyn: Yeah, yeah.

Susan: Okay. And that was the breaking moment you felt that kind of pushed you into the second half, or the second part of life. Is that…?

Marilyn: Absolutely.

Susan: Okay.

Marilyn: Absolutely. You know, what was confusing me was the earlier story in my book of when I began to question my own spiritual roots and training. And so by the time I was divorced, near the end of my marriage, I had gone back to school and gotten my master’s degree in psychology, and was working as an expressive arts there. So at that point in time, I had already taken the arts back as a way to communicate with myself. I had taken you know, my body expression back, so I had a better relationship with this non- rational part of myself than earlier in my life, the first part of my life was all about how those non rational parts were taken away from me through different ways. And then the second part of my life how I took them back.

So by the time I divorced, and it was a completely devastating thing to me. While I was very into my work, and my mission life, I had really dedicated myself to family. I just could not imagine that even though there were divorces happening all around me in that period of time, I think that’s lessening now. But I never believed that mine was going to end in divorce, even though it was a challenging relationship. Sure, when that happened, it was like a death. It was an ego death. But it was like dying. It was like having to reform myself completely. And be very honest and true to myself. The art in that section of my book, I think expresses the complete fury at the time.

Susan: Yes.

Marilyn: Yeah. And that there’s one drawing of this Medusa haired, snake hair in the background and this little policeman in the front with his baton trying to control this Medusa woman. And she was just so full of feelings, you know, that’s where I saw myself; so full of these huge feelings of betrayal and just absolute rage, not just anger, absolute rage. And the other part of me this little policeman person saying “You can’t have all those feelings. You have to not have that,” and he was pretty ineffectual. He looked kind of small there with his little baton trying to…Yeah. And so as much as I could use my art and my body and my connection to nature to help me through that time, all those things don’t make the pain not happen. They just placed them in a larger perspective so it’s easier to hold the suffering.

We all suffer in one way or another as humans. And to me, spirituality is finding a big enough picture of who we are and why we’re here and what we’re doing here on earth, and the natural world around us to hold us as we have these experiences. And my divorce definitely set me looking more in an inner way of who am I and why am I here and what am I doing? And I took that energy out into nature because nature had always been a magical mystical place for me and it was the only place I could see that could hold the really primitive feelings that were coursing through me at the time. You know nature has earthquakes, nature has fires, nature has storms and wind and nature is always giving birth to itself, but it’s also always destroying itself. And it just was an intuitive thing to me that that was where I needed to take this wild energy inside myself at the time, and going out in nature, hiking by myself, even though I hadn’t done so much of that as a younger woman, was just vital to my healing.

I had to come to understand that in the circle of life, things are born and things die. And you know, not only people, which we know, but it takes a lifetime for that to really sink in. And this feeling that something even as precious as my family life could end. It was kind of a removal of the innocence of my earlier life where I guess I was invested in only beginnings and birth. And I needed to come to terms with the whole circle. And unless we put ourselves in that circle of life and accept the comings and goings and the birth and the death and the beginnings and the endings, we don’t really find our belonging on this planet because that is an important piece. And again, it doesn’t stop the grief when something ends, it’s important to go through the grief. But when it’s held in this bigger picture, that’s what I hope people will take from— is finding whatever it is for them that holds the big picture of what we humans are held in.

Susan: Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good, because I don’t feel like it’s the same for everyone. And I think that’s a good thing too. We don’t all see it the same way. Something that I’m realizing as you’re as you’re speaking, and correct me if I’m wrong, but you were already very well connected with your feminine side. And it seems like the times that you grew up in, your younger years of the 60s and the 70s and the women’s movement and your work through that. It seems to me that once you went through your divorce that you really stepped back. And I love how you did it, you really went and found your masculine energy that was already there inside you. And you’ve reconnected with that.

Marilyn: Right.

Susan: I feel like I’ve done that as a woman as well, where I feel like we’re in a time…And sometimes it’s easier as like this pro feminine woman to like, take on all of that energy and put the masculine energy aside and say, “Oh, I don’t need that,” or “I’ll deal with that later.”

Marilyn: Uh-huh.

Susan: Talk to me about that. And what is your experience been? Because I feel like you could offer so much wisdom in that area because you’ve kind of been there and done it already.

Marilyn: Well, you know, you have to put my day back to growing up in the 40s, 50s, 60s. In terms of my younger life, the 50s you know, I was born in 1945. So women, you know,

Susan: Wow.

Marilyn: So traditional in the…Well, I don’t remember that much about the 40s since I was only five but it was so traditional.

Susan: I’m thinking the old life magazines are popping up in my head.

Marilyn: Yes.

Susan: Yes.

Marilyn: You know, and my mom did not work until I was in college. And then she did some substitute teaching and home teaching, part time teaching to help get me through school, but she had no relationship to money even. I mean, my dad made all the money. And of course, the Women’s Movement came and the 60s happened. And that was an incredibly challenging time and I was there in the feminist movement. Early on, I read the feminine mystique late in college, and I considered myself a feminist. And once were little when I was having babies and my kids were little, I was part of the National Organization for Women and I was organizing consciousness raising groups in Palo Alto.

And what I laugh at, and I think I have that in my book, at the same time, I was still ironing my husband’s shirt and doing all the cooking, but I was a feminist and I was going to change things. And it’s a necessary phase that I had to go through. But it’s been a lifetime of trying to find a balance between the masculine and the feminine energy inside of myself. And my divorce, you know, I had not at the time of my divorce. I had not supported myself with my own money. I married right out of college; within weeks of graduating from college. And I guess I did support…One of my saying, I did support my husband as he was going through medical school in those early years, but I then started having babies one year before he graduated from medical school.

So I hadn’t really, you know, established a firm career for myself until I was in my 40s. And then it was supplemental income compared to what my husband was earning. And so when we divorced, it was like a crash course in now I have to support myself, now I have to take care of this seven acre property of forest land that I live on. You know, now I have to be completely in charge of my life. And I still had a son at home for three years at the time of my divorce so that was also single parenting, although he was in high school, but you know, it was a crash course and all those things I had turned over to my husband to at least help with or do the whole thing of. And it’s an ongoing work in progress to keep that part of myself going.

And certainly writing my book is a big piece of the outcome of that because it takes really a lot of discipline and focus to write a book and I did stay with myself. The earlier me, I don’t think I would have been able to do that. But what’s so very important to me, is balancing the two because this feminine part of me, this woman who gave birth…One of the most precious experiences of my entire life, was being pregnant and giving birth to my children. And this deep understanding that our bodies have as women. And also knowing that I can be in the world and do the things in the world. I sometimes think that part of the women’s movement that I was most involved in, sort of turned on that precious part of being a woman, which I don’t think is where we want to be in the end. I think we want to be in a more balanced place where we have both of these parts inside ourselves and we’re honoring both of them. Because every human being I think, has a feminine part and the masculine part, including men. And men, you know, are often having to pull forth their feminine energy and we women are pulling forth our masculine energy. But I just so want us to be in balance with that rather than one or the other being what is taking charge.

Susan: I appreciate how you said that “honoring both.” I think it’s hard. And I think our culture doesn’t help with that, either for women or for men, at all.

Marilyn: Right. Indeed.

Susan: We’re constantly fighting it. If we’re men, we’re constantly fighting the feminine and if we’re women, we’re constantly…Or it seems to be. I could be totally wrong. But it seems to be that we’re constantly fighting whichever one we’re not. Or giving it…Or maybe even…. I mean, I grew up… I don’t live in the south anymore. But I grew up in in the in the south, I grew up in South Carolina. So even just giving over to the masculine and forgetting our feminine or taking the feminine back to the 1950s feminine, which maybe that’s not always a good thing either. Balance is a hard thing to find. Do you have any recommendations on finding that balance?

Marilyn: Well, I just think being conscious…You know, I don’t want to act like I’m someone who’s figured it out completely because I’m clearly not. In fact, in my women’s group last night, I was talking about this aspect. I am a work in progress in this regard. And in some ways I my life, I don’t think it’s a problem I’m going to solve in our culture.

Susan: Sure.

Marilyn: I think it’s ongoing work, but to be conscious about where my masculine energy is and how its functioning and to be conscious of where my feminine energy is and how its functioning. And for me, that consciousness particularly often comes in my dreams. We haven’t spoken about that part of my involvement. You know, our dreaming self, we go to sleep each night, we all dream. If we turn our attention to our dreams, they have fabulous messages for us. But they’re all in metaphor and symbol, and story, and they need to be decoded. And for me, I often use the arts because I think they all come from the same place. But I worked for many years with a dream mentor, Jeremy Taylor, who helped me a lot in the writing of my book. And unfortunately, he died a little over a year ago so he didn’t ever get to see the end product.

Susan: Oh, I’m sorry.

Marilyn: He was such a dear man and really helped me use my dreams. I’ve been in a dream group with friends for about 30 years, which is a really long time. We meet every other week, and each person shares a dream and the people in the group respond to that sharing of the dream as if they dreamed that dream themselves. So they’re not telling the dreamer what their dream is about. But saying “if that were my dream, or in my event, imagine version of that dream, this symbol would mean this to me.” And we can offer each other a great deal of information in that way because we all meet on this simple metaphor level as human beings. We all share that same pool, and can bring important messages to each other.

So I watch my dreams about what are the women in my dreams doing? What are the masculine figures in my dreams doing? And that gives me the closest watch. I’m hoping I’m explaining that. Like, one time, in my dream group I was having a dream that I was on a basketball court. And I was dribbling all over the court and I was so skillful. And I just was so impressed with my dribbling and I was going around people and it was just masterful, and I was so proud of myself. And I finished reading the dream and a man in my group said, “My God, take a shot.”

So here’s a dream. Where the feminine part of me, you know, was being very skillful in all her maneuvering around the court. But she wasn’t taking the shot. She wasn’t scoring, she wasn’t making that mark in the world. So you know, I might not have come up with that myself but having people to share your dreams with… Jeremy used to always say we’re uniquely blind to a lot of our own processes. And that’s how we can help one another and come together with one another to understand these things about ourselves. But that dream has just stayed with me forever because my creative, feminine self dreams up and imagines all these things and is involved in all these relationships with women and men and friends and all of this. But there’s also this point where you make your mark in the world, and the masculine energy inside me can take this feminine energy and make it happen in the world. So I dreamed up my book, I went deeply into my creative self to write that book, but it was my masculine energy that made it happen in the world, but it’s out there as a book now, is my masculine energy.
And, you know, there is a… I don’t know, I think that book is still available. Clarissa Pinkola, the SDS book, Women Who Run with the Wolves, her chapter on creativity, it’s one of those books that I have underlined. I have read that chapter so many times in my life that, and each time that… I read it, I’m at a different place in my life so I underline different things. And literally almost every line in that chapter is underlined.

Susan: That’s beautiful.

Marilyn: Because she talks completely about this feminine dreaming up and envisioning and creating and all of this, you know, in the darkness, and then the masculine energy brings it out into the world. So I would recommend that book, in particular, because there’s other stories. You know, she uses fairy tales, and then talks about the underneath message of the fairy tale. And she has another chapter in there that I think is vital for every woman to read about the blue beard story, you know, where we all have this predator inside of us, and we as women need to learn to deal with that.

Susan: Well, I will look into that for sure. And I will link that in our show notes on my website as well. And I want to be respectful of your time, but I don’t want to forget to talk about your creative retreat that you hold called, I believe it’s called “For the Joy of it.” Is that correct?

Marilyn: Yes, in the last 10 years, thank you for asking, in the last 10 years, in working less and carrying less of a weekly client load, I decided to open my property here in the forest in Mendocino as a creative retreat, and host people in rooms in the upstairs of my house. And for me, this is an individual retreat, though I on occasion, do a group thing. But for a person to come by themselves, step out of their busy life and take some time to look into their inner world. I have an art studio on my property. And while people are here, they can have sessions with me. There’s a labyrinth on the property. We do dream work. If people are into their dreams. I create each retreat uniquely to the person who’s coming. But that’s been a great joy to me at this point in my life. I’m enjoying it immensely.

Yeah, I get a connection with younger people who are really busy in their career life. And I get a lot of people from the Bay Area, so a lot of the tech people, and they just come up in the forest here and everything moves at a different pace. And it’s an opportunity to drop in and discover a deeper part of ourselves, which to me is our authentic self and what we really want directing our lives rather than some outward thing that we’re striving for. How are we being directed from the inside, to move forward in our lives. So that’s what I’m doing in creative retreats, and nobody has to be skilled in the arts to come try that. That’s my main message.

Susan: Well, I think anytime that you can disconnect… I can’t even imagine being in the tech world and disconnecting. But anytime any of us now, in today’s world can disconnect and get into nature of any kind is a phenomenal experience. And I cannot even imagine just how much more fulfilling it would be to be with you and with the wisdom and everything that you bring to this, because you’ve already done so much work within yourself. It’s in your book. I mean, what you have done just it just flies off the page and it just hits you in the face of this is important stuff. You have to take care of your true inner self and you have to know who your who your true self is…As well as I think Richard Rohr calls it your false self. I don’t remember I get so many I read I’m reading so much, I can’t remember who says what. And you may have actually refer to it that way as well. I can’t remember. But just the importance of getting to know your true inner self and who you are, and how to connect with that. And you put it so eloquently, and you share it so beautifully in your book.

Marilyn: Thank you so much. It means a lot to me that that’s how it came across to you. And you know, the other person I would recommend a book called Belonging by Toko-pa Turner, is really on the same wavelength as I am. It’s an excellent, excellent book, so I would strongly recommend that book. And I love Richard Rohr. I read his daily medications, actually. So…

Susan: Oh, wow.

Marilyn: Yes. The language, as you say, is different for each one of us, but the important thing is for each of us to find our own language and talk about it. And by the other people and the way they see it. I just see it as a diamond with all these facets, you know, and this person sees it this way, but the diamond is still the diamond.

Susan: Yes. That was a beautiful way to say that. Oh, my gosh, yes.

Marilyn: Yeah.

Susan: That is so… Oh, wow. Yes, that is, yes. Wow, that just blew my mind. But yes, the diamond is still the diamond. Wow. I’m gonna have to sit with that one a little while.

Marilyn: Well, to me, there’s the power of image right there.

Susan: Yeah.

Marilyn: Well, that image struck in a particular way. And that is beyond…When you say “I have to sit with it for a while,” that’s beyond the rational mind. That’s where it struck in some way. That is beyond the rational, that some something in there goes, “Oh, yeah,” you know, that’s a gut level response. And so much of my work is based on that. And when I’m working with people with art, the images that come out on the paper, whether they can draw it or not, in an accurate way, those images come out. You know, a woman who doesn’t have any art, for instance, you know, can just get the image out, communicate something deeper, then “I don’t know what to do with myself.” Our arms are the part that do things in the world. And so, how to get underneath is what the images are really about to me. So that was a great example. I’m so glad when it struck.

Susan: Yes. Well, I really appreciate your time today. And I really appreciate your work and explaining to us what you do as an expressive art therapist. And it sounds like you are still just very much involved in your own practice, in your own figuring out things in life. So it sounds like even at the age of 74, the work just never ends as long as you’re still living life, and it sounds like you are, you are in it. And I love that

Marilyn: I do not want to work to end, actually. To me, the world is a mysterious magical place, and I want to just keep discovering as much as I possibly can about the world and myself until I am on my deathbed.

Susan: I love that. Oh, this has been my audience is going to love this this conversation but this has just been so meaningful to me. I have been looking forward to this since the first chapter I read in your book, and I thought, this is going to be life changing for me. And it really has been. It was really funny when I looked at the back of it’s listed as a self help/inspirational book. And you know, I think sometimes we think of the idea of self help, and we’re like, “oh, another one of those books,” like, but inspirational is definitely…It’s not the regular self help like, here’s step one, two and three years, it’s very much a memoir. And it’s a memoir, plus you tell the story of your life. And then you give people opportunities, and you invite them in to experience their own life in a different way. And I just found that so helpful, so, so helpful. And I think everybody should pick this book up. In fact, I’m going to be… I’m very lucky enough to have the advanced reader copy, but I will be buying a few more myself and giving them as Christmas gifts this year.

Marilyn: Thank you so much. You know, it’s just been a delight…You draw the best of me forward. And that’s a wonderful gift of an interviewer.

Susan: Oh, well, likewise.

Marilyn: I’ve enjoyed it. Am I did I

Susan: Before I let you go, are you active on social media at all? I know you have a website and I’m going to direct everybody to go to that website. But is there anywhere, besides your creative retreats, is there anywhere else people can find you maybe other interviews you’ve done that I can point people to?

Marilyn: I’m on Facebook at Marilyn Hager author. I’m on Instagram at Marilyn K. Hager, author.

Susan: Okay, great.

Marilyn: My website, you know, definitely has more information about everything I’m doing and that’s marilynhager.com.

Susan: Great. Well, I will encourage people to definitely go and check those out and definitely pick up a copy of your book. I think it’s one of those things it is, you didn’t write it earlier in life. You couldn’t have written it earlier in life. But at the time in history where we are in life, I feel like it is so needed now. So I think it came at just the right time.

Marilyn: Well, thank you. I’m hoping that it’s…I needed to harvest my life and I needed to offer some things I’ve learned. So I hope it’s useful. That’s my main thing. And I hope it goes out in the world in a synchronous way. Like you say, it finds people just at the point in time in their life when that’s what speaks to them.

Susan: Well, thank you very, very much for your time today. It has been an honor speaking with you.

Marilyn: Well, thank you really, I’ve just enjoyed it immensely.

Susan: Okay, thanks so much, Marilyn. Bye-bye.

Marilyn: Bye- bye

Brookes Collective was founded by two sisters living on different continents. Kate lives in a suburb of Dallas, Texas called Mckinney. Kimberly lives in a village close to Cape Town, South Africa called Muizenberg.

One day as they were talking on the phone, they began chatting about fashion; what fits well, where to find beautiful pieces, and most importantly: how could they ever afford a sustainable and ethically sourced closet?

The sisters decided it shouldn’t be this difficult to buy beautiful clothes while at the same time valuing human life. It should not have to be one or another. This is the point in the conversation where one sister suggested they figure out a way to do it themselves.

Links:

Brookes Collective – website

Brookes Collective – blog

Brookes Collective – Facebook

Brookes Collective – Instagram

Show Notes:

Transcript:

Susan: Well, Kate, I am really just so excited you could join us today on the show. For those of our audience who are not familiar with Brookes Collective, I can’t believe they’re not because if I know about something that’s up and coming in fashion, then I just presume at this point, the whole world knows about it because I’m never at the forefront of fashion. But I do think I was lucky enough to meet a mutual friend of ours and she had on the jumpsuit, and I finally got one of my own and it is one of my favorite pieces. I absolutely love it. But before I just go on and on and on, I’m going to let you share your own story about Brookes Collective and about your sister who, unfortunately because this is a second recording of this podcast couldn’t be here today, and I’ll explain all of that to my audience later. But yeah, tell us a little bit about what’s going on at Brookes Collective. And tell us about a little bit about yourself and your sister and how all of this kind of came into being.

Kate: Yeah. Oh, cool. Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be on here. Kimberly was so disappointed not to be able to make it work. But she is living in South Africa. And she is, she has been living in South Africa for the last 10 years. And it is a little tricky to do, to coordinate meetings sometimes. But Brookes Collective, we started about a year ago, maybe more like a year and a half ago when this concept of Brookes Collective started. Kimberly and I are super close. And like I said, she lives around the world from me, but thank goodness for technology, we’re able to talk all the time.

And so we were just talking on the phone one day about fashion, just the normal stuff that we you know, what new styles are you into? What are you looking to buy this season, that kind of stuff. And we started talking about a pair of boots that were, you know, a little bit more expensive than—These were Kimberly looking into these—A little more expensive than she normally likes to buy. But she’s like, “You know what, but they’re quality made. I know they’re going to last. I know it’s from a company that’s fair trade.”And so we sort of started going down that rabbit trail of fair trade and what that means and what it looks like. And we realized, you know, we talked about fashion all the time. But what our conversations now are is to like, what kind of fashion is fair trade and what is quality? And it’s not so much about the sales and the cheapest thing we can buy and the fleeting fashion, but the classic pieces, and we both were kind of like, “Hey, this is something that we could really get behind. Is this something that we could do?”

And that’s how Brook’s Collective kind of blossomed. This is what it was, just this one conversation, like “Maybe we could do this “And so we did, I mean we just said “Let’s just see what happens. Let’s take this as far as we can and if it works, it works. If it doesn’t, then, you know, it maybe will be a little fun adventure along the way. “And so that was last March. And we launched our very first line on March 1, 2019. It was our spring/summer line. And it was amazing. It was such a, I mean, a crazy adventure ups and downs, of course, we manufacture our clothes in South Africa, where Kimberly lives. We use a manufacturer that’s amazing. We just love partnering with them. And at this point now, we’ve used several manufacturers that we have gotten to know personally, we know the situation that the women are in that have created these clothes. And we just know that every step along the way, these women have been treated fairly. And maybe for those of you who aren’t quite sure about what fair trade means. It’s basically a concept of creating, whether it’s clothing or home goods or whatever, fair trade can be anything. But it’s creating the product in a way that really honors the artisans.

So these women are paid not only a fair wage, not only minimum wage, because we know that that’s not always enough, and especially in some of these developing countries, it’s for sure isn’t enough. And so it’s a living wage, it’s a wage where they are able to really care for themselves and their family. And it’s a living wage, and it’s a clean, safe environment. And it’s also a lot of upscale so they might come in not knowing the industry and, you know, particularly, at one manufacturer that we use, they upscale all of their artisans and they—It’s amazing. These women might come in with very little concept of what it takes to be a seamstress, and then by the end, they’re doing all sorts of things. They’re learning as they go, and I just know that for us in the United States, that’s kind of an expectation, right? Like, we want to keep learning and growing in our industry. And it’s something that maybe is taken for granted and that’s something that in fair trade is considered.

So, that’s what we did, and we were super excited to get our first line out. And we just started out with nine original pieces ranging from like you said, the jumpsuit, which looks amazing on you, by the way, I’ve seen you in it. I love it. The jumpsuit, and we have some dresses and some tops and you know, another piece of what we’re wanting to do is to have really classic pieces just to keep them in style longer. There’s so much fast fashion out there, you know, you see the stores in the mall where you can get clothes for so cheap. And you think, you know, if I wear it one or two times then it makes it worth it. And if you’re taking it as just what it is, it’s a piece of clothing, a shirt, whatever, then maybe that makes sense. But if you go back and think like, okay, so who made this? Under what conditions were they able to sell a shirt for $12, $6, whatever it might be, like someone had to have been paid for that, well, maybe not because otherwise a company’s trying to make money and they didn’t make money if they’re paying someone a fair wage on that. So we’re trying to have classic pieces that are going to just stand the test of time as well.

Susan: Yeah, and you know, I would also add that what you guys have they’re beautiful pieces, but they are not astronomically priced. They really are at a price point where I think it’s totally, I don’t want to say always affordable because I know everybody’s income levels are different, but I mean, these are not like, I mean, you have tops on here—I’m trying to scroll. I’m actually on your website right now. I mean, you have something that I’m looking forward to getting now that I have seen, it is something called a grandpa sweater, which is like this huge like, blankety looking sweater. It looks so comfy and so cozy. I want to sit in front of a fireplace right now in it, except that it’s October in Dallas, and when we’re recording this, it is 90 degrees outside, whatever. It is $62. So it’s like, what you have is definitely on the affordable end of fashion. And I appreciate both ends of this; you’re not only paying someone a living wage, but you’re also like not up charging this to a ridiculous price that’s unaffordable for the average person, and I love that about your thing because I feel like it gives everybody the opportunity to participate in something like this, because that’s the way I see it, I see it as a participation, it’s like you gave us the opportunity to participate in something that’s just a fabulous idea, and I just love everything about what you guys are doing.

Kate: Thank you. Well, and that is something that was really heavy on our hearts in the beginning of, do you think that if, one, if everyone knew what happened in the fashion industry of how people were treated, who create our garments, if people knew that if they would shop differently, but if it was affordable, people would shop differently as well. So like you said, affordable is a hard word because people are coming from all different backgrounds financially but we did try to make them moderately priced so the day to day people can afford it, not just people who can spend tons of money on clothes but most people can afford it, and know that they’re taking a step in the right direction when it comes to fair trade fashion.

Susan: Well, and I’ll just also add because I have the jumpsuit and it’s amazing. And I’ve already said it once, but I will say that it is really honestly well-made clothing that will last. It’s not something—And I know you said this, but like as somebody who owns a piece, it’s not something that’s like, just good for a season and “Oh, I’ll never wear that again. “It’s not that type of thing. So I appreciate all sides of that.
Yes. Tell share with us what were you doing pre Brookes Collective? Because this kind of came across from a conversation that you guys had. Did you have knowledge about the fashion industry? I know your sister was already living overseas. Did she have the opportunity? Was she already involved with some of these companies that you would be going to help manufacture this type of your clothing? Tell us a little bit about that process and what that looks like.

Kate: Okay, well, yeah, it’s kind of funny because no, I would say no to that answer. We do not. We are two girls that it’s like, where did we even come from to do this? And Kimberly is actually been overseas for 10 years, and working in counter human trafficking, among other justice issue problems around the world, and so she is, I mean, she’s amazing. I’m her big sister, she’s in the trenches, I’m so proud of her things she did. She showed up when she’s 20 years old ready to go change the world. And she made a huge impact in the counter industry of the sex trafficking movement. And so that’s her background. She’s worked with women and people, children and even men who have been treated unfairly in this life. And she’s worked against the system to try to make changes, so mostly in the sex industry.

And so that’s her background. And so she always had a very soft spot on her heart just for justice. I mean, from the time she was a little girl, we all knew that she was going to do something but our whole family… And so I think really, if I take it back another step, our parents really raised us to have a soft spot for justice. I wasn’t in the trenches like she was. I’m not quite as brave as she is. But I did social work before I had kids. And so I work with at risk families and children. And so we both had this, we both have always had just a heart for people and seeing just fairness.

And so when it all started, we didn’t have the connections necessarily, but we did have Google. Yeah, there’s that. No, but we just kind of started off, figuring things out as we go. And I just think it was amazing the relationships that we built along the way. This is true story, how we found our first manufacturer. Kimberly was actually working, doing some research about what our first steps are in a coffee shop in Cape Town. And she just turned to someone who she just had seen mutually around town, around the area and was like, “Hey, do you know any manufacturer around here? “And they’re like, “Yeah, actually down on this one street, there’s someone.” So she just pops in there. And she expected to set up a meeting and so her and I could talk and figure out what we want to say but she wanted to set this meeting up. And Kate, the owner of Spirit Society, who is our manufacturer was like, “Yeah, come on, let’s talk.”

Susan: Oh, wow!

Kate: I don’t even know like what questions to ask yet. But it was amazing because we worked together so well. And Spirit Society was our main manufacturer for that first line. And I mean, we just learned so much from each other starting out. It was really incredible. So we did not come into this with experience, but we have learned so much in this past year, year and a half that we’re just like different people going into it now.

Susan: No kidding. So now that you’ve been through one launch, well, two really, what were some of the lessons—this is totally off script—What were some of the lessons that you learned from the first launch that you were able to take into the second launch? Was there anything that like sticks out to you that you were like, that was the one thing that if anybody else, were starting a business or starting a company, that that would be the one thing that I would tell them?

Kate: You know, I just think expectations can be killer. You know, we came in, and—I mean, luckily, we were smart enough to say, well, we can’t come in with the first line this very next season. We knew that if we started March of 2018, we were going to need to wait until a full year to get things: our designs in place, our fabrics chosen, and everything manufactured. And there’s bumps along the way; every step there’s bumps and so I think we—And some of them were very unexpected to us. And again, like we had to work through how are we going deal with this? I’m across the world from the manufacturing, there’s a lot that I couldn’t do. There was a lot that Kimberly couldn’t do on this side.

So our expectations just needed to be, I don’t want to lower, that doesn’t sound very good, but they had to be realistic, you know what I mean? And we have to be realistic of we’re working with humans, and there’s mistakes that are going to be made and that’s okay. And kind of have a little softer timeframe. And so the second go round, I think that for the manufacturing piece, we learned a lot to kind of expect that, to just know that things were going to happen. But then now our next line is held up in customs. So it’s like there’s always something that’s going to happen, and then it’s okay, we’re trying to just roll with it. Because we’re not fast fashion, we’re slow fashion, when bumps along the way happen and it pushes back our timeline, it’s okay, because we are valuing human life. And in doing that, like we’re allowing for some mistakes to happen and we are okay.

Susan: You know, I’m so glad, I’m not kidding, I’m really so glad you said that. The podcast is about a year and a half as well. And I’ve kind of been going through some of the same stuff of, “Oh, I need to be doing so much more every day”. And I have like, you know, my list of things that I have to get through, and I get through it sometimes, I execute that really well. And it’s like, “Wow, I should really be doing more. “And it’s like, you can always be doing more or you can always be figuring something out, or you can always be tweaking, and sometimes what I really lack is patience with myself, patience with the process, patients was starting something from the ground up. And so I think your words are very wise. I think that is great, great wisdom to impart on people, is you just really have to have patience, because there isn’t a real zero to 60 overnight.

Kate: Mm-hmm. True.

Susan: I appreciate you saying that. So, your stuff is currently locked up in customs, huh?

Kate: Well, it’s on its way through. And I just got an email this morning saying that it should be available on the 6th, which is Sunday. So we’re like celebrating. We were hoping to get it in July. So this is good news.

Susan: Well, also good news is that the weather is finally maybe going to get cool. So you know, we can all not only purchase these wonderful pieces but wear them, so there’s that.

Kate: Yep.

Susan: Right? Well, it’s kind of perfect timing then?

Kate: Yeah.

Susan: All things work out in the end.

Kate: They do.

Susan: One of the things that I wanted to talk a little bit about is your inspiration and the design of the clothing. And I know that, I think you said neither one of you actually know how to sew. Is that still the case? Or are you…? What are we delving into now that you’re on your second line?

Kate: We are learning so much more.

Susan: Yeah.

Kate: We’re learning so much more. But no, we’re still pretty hands off when it comes to the actual process of it, and as far as the manufacturing goes.

Susan: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah, we’re taking it on. So our designs are going through, our manufacturers also have designers in-house and so we’re working. We’re collaborating really closely with them. And they’re amazing. And we have just really gotten to know and love them on a personal level, and love to see their creativity come out. It’s pretty special.

Susan: It’s really such a neat idea of y’all just really finding some amazing people and saying, “Hey, we’ve got an idea and can you help us out,” and they’re like “Absolutely, and we have the perfect people to match you up with. “I just think that’s fabulous, absolutely fabulous. I know one of the other things you’ve mentioned in the past is not only is it fair trade as far as working with people and making sure people have a living wage, but you also are very conscious about the types of materials you use. And I think we’ve talked a little bit about that, but could you dive into that just a little deeper for us?

Kate: Sure. Well, we’re really excited because this next line that comes out is almost all natural fibers made and grown in South Africa and so cotton, natural cotton. So the Grampa sweater is an example of that. That’s all South African cotton. It’s so soft, it’s so great. It’s so amazing to be pouring into this economy even further in South Africa and their farming as well. And so that is our goal is to move into all natural fibers. And I will say the first line isn’t completely but then it’s baby steps, we’re taking the steps to get there as fast as we can, and we’re really excited about the progress that we have made.

Susan: That is really neat. Now, with your finding, I presume farmers are what they’re called there just like they are here. Is that through the manufacturers as well that you’ve been able to build those relationships? Or how have you been able to find all of your different words that fit the puzzle?

Kate: Yeah, we’re working with just the textile companies, so the fabric companies. It’s just about relationships, and that’s really true. I wish Kimberly was on here to talk a little bit more about it; in South Africa, it’s such a relational culture. It’s amazing. So when I was there, let’s see when was that, in November, last November, I was there and we go to talk to a couple of different fabric stores. And we start talking about what our needs are, what we’re looking for, and the owner of one shop was giving us a ton of time and we were so appreciative of him, we were learning so much.

Again, we’re learning as we go. And we’re telling him what our vision is, and someone sitting right across the table from us. And he’s like, “Oh, well, you’ve got to use this guy here. He does all the cotton here, “and he was sitting there listening to us and he was able to talk to us and fill us in and give us contacts. And it was really amazing timing. And it was just so neat that we just felt like it all fit together so perfectly that he was giving us the time listening to our vision, and then he had known this man and knew that he was going to be perfect. He also introduced us to our knitwear manufacturer, who created the grandpa’s sweater as long as well as a crew neck sweater that we have coming out also in the South African cotton. So it’s so amazing to see how networking and relationships can build a company. And that was one of the biggest surprises for me in starting a company and something that I love is the networking piece. I love hearing other people’s stories and seeing how we can work to help each other and, you know, growing companies together. And you know, that’s how I met you. I just think it’s such an amazing piece that maybe isn’t talked about. But networking is so important and so incredible.

Susan: Oh, you’re absolutely right. That is such a very valid and good point. I have really enjoyed doing this podcast, not just because I’m helping share stories, but it is because of all of the amazing women doing incredible things all over. I’ve met women all over the country at this point. And it really is just amazing what women are doing and how we can support each other and empower each other and encourage each other to just follow whatever path we find ourselves on. Yeah, I want to switch gears just a little bit. Something we haven’t chatted about yet, but I want to get your take on is working with family. I think it is amazing that you and your sister have such a good relationship that you can actually have a company together. I think that is a testament to many years of probably being pretty close. But now I’m jumping in and trying to tell your story for you. So I’m going to let you talk a little bit about that and share with us what it’s like being that close working with family regularly.

Kate: Yes, yeah. Kimberly and I are super close. And we have been, you know, for years. I’m six years older than her so you know, of course I—Maybe not when we were little, but ever since I was into adulthood, she’s my very best friend. We call each other our soul mates. We’re very close. And I mean, we haven’t lived in the same city for, well, at least, let’s see, probably close to 15 years. We miss each other. And going to South Africa for Brookes Collective was not my first time, like I would be out there to visit her when she had her children, and she always came into town when I had my children, and just doing life together is like what a tragedy is my life that I can’t do day to day life with my sister, that’s such [inaudible 27:21] there. I just I love her so much.

And so doing business together—Sometimes the closer you are to someone, the easier it is to get irritated with them or to be able to, you’re comfortable enough to voice your frustrations where you might bottle that down a little bit more with someone you’re not related to. And so we have been very conscientious to make communication key and talk through—we’ve always said, what is most important to us is our relationship. So if that’s starting to suffer, Brookes Collective has to go away because her and I, our relationship is so important. And that’s been like a baseline for us from day one. And there have been some rough times where it’s hard to work together. But I would say mostly we’re able to talk it through. She knows what my frustrated voice sounds like, I know what her sounds like. And we’re able to say, Okay, wait, stop, let’s talk this through. And what’s amazing, because we’re so entrenched in each other’s life, not just, you know, outside of Brookes Collective as well. She’s able to say, like, “What’s going on outside of this, like, clearly, you can’t be just frustrated about what’s going on here. So let’s talk about your life.”

And so then we’ll be able to talk through personal and business, and that’s, you know, that’s huge. And we just have such a mutual respect for one another, that we’ve kind of fallen into the roles that we’ve taken, just naturally in some she’s on the ground in Cape Town, so she has to do the meetings with the manufacturers, all that good stuff, and I’m here and I’m doing distribution and she’s fallen in to the social media role and it’s certain things like that. And I really think we respect one another and how things are being moved along and how that works. And so that’s also a huge point of success for us as well.

Susan: I wonder, because you guys were clearly raised by amazing parents who really put an emphasis on others, taking care of others. There had to have been an emphasis there on family and staying connected with family. A lot of the women who listen to our podcast are moms. I think you’re a mom, too. Am I right on that?

Kate: I do have three girls.

Susan: Wow, it’s three. Wow. Do you have any words of wisdom or things you have learned, either through being part of Brookes Collective or just or working with family or any words of wisdom you might share for moms out there who want to make sure—Because I think with us at the end of the day, there’s so much that we’re doing for our kids, right? We want to make sure that the earth is still here for our children. We want to make sure people are treated fairly because it’s a world our children are going to be growing up in, and we want everyone to have equity. It needs to be an equitable place to live. So do you have any thoughts on that or any words of wisdom that you might share with moms out there who are also kind of working owning their own thing, starting their own thing but are also in the trenches with kiddos?

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. So, my three girls are 10, 9 and 7, and then Kimberly has two girls that are 5 and almost 4. So there are a lot of them and they’re all — what is it called? Stair steps down in age. And I guess I just want to say that they are watching, and it is powerful to have my words come out of their mouth. And it just shows me that, okay, they’re listening and they’re paying attention. And maybe I might have had these ideals of fair trade fashion and how I want to shop responsibly before but because I’m so entrenched in it now with Brookes Collective they’re seeing and hearing it constantly.
And I have a video of my now seven year old talking about how when she grows up, she wants to stop slavery, and I just like, it meant the world to me that she is sharing that and processing it and seeing her mom and her aunt take an active role in that. Because in the fashion industry, obviously with clothes being so cheap, slavery is a common place. And so they know that. We’ve been transparent to our children about what that means and why we’re doing bricks collective. And so they’re aware of it and they are proud of me and their aunt, that’s really special too. Because if there’s someone I want to make an impression on in this world, it’s them. And I think that we have and I think that it’s going to continue. And Kimberly and I have these great hopes of someday our girls stepping in and being a part of this with us. And we just love that they’re seeing us being empowered enough to take a step. And I love that they’re seeing us empowering other women around the world. And it means so much to us to invite them into that conversation.

Susan: And that is such a good conversation to have, not just with your children, but with your friends around you. I don’t remember—It may have been y’all who kind of made me look into like some of the brands that that I love and first of all, even trying to figure out where some of this stuff is sourced is like crazy. It’s almost impossible. But then it’s not just your cheaper clothing that you think that you might, you know, like the $5 t-shirt or whatever, it really is, like even some of your higher end clothing, the way it is sourced. So I don’t want somebody to go out there and think, oh, just because I bought this piece that cost a fortune, think that that was necessarily sourced from an ethical situation, because that’s not necessarily the case. Do you guys have any stats on that or how that’s working? I know that there are companies out there because of public pressure, that are trying to do a better job or at least put a better face on what they’re doing, whether they’re actually doing it or not, do you guys have any stats on that or anywhere people can go and check that out and look if they’re really interested in.

Kate: You know, it’s really funny that you’re bringing that up because I just did—On our website, we also have a blog that Kimberley and I write, and it’s a lot about just information because we think, you know, information is power. If you’re educated on what is going on in the industry, you’re going to take steps in the right direction most likely. And so we think that that’s a huge piece of what our business is, is just educating our consumer. And I just wrote a blog about this about companies that are—just how to be aware of— just be a savvy fair trade shopper. So the example that I gave was Target’s got this new brand out called Good Threads. Is it Good Threads? I think it’s called Good Threads. And so were walking by when Kimberly was in town this summer, and they had got this plaque that says “fair trade denim.” And we’re like, “Oh my gosh, this so incredible. This is amazing.” So we go, we like grab everything up from this line and go try it on because we’re so excited to see it at a big box store, and we start looking closer at the labels and we realize it’s not only just the denim that’s fair trade certified, but it’s only like two pairs of the denim that’s fair trade. And we just felt like it was really sneaky. Like, that’s really — marketing is tricky, you know, it’s so hard to get around it.

And so we walked away feeling just manipulated by the situation. And so we didn’t buy anything, and we were just not pleased. And I did research a couple different times. And I just thought, you know, if this is truly fair trade denim at Target, you would think that would be a really big deal for them. Why aren’t they…? I mean, I see them marketing and they’re trying to get you to buy the whole line, even though only these two items are fair trade, but I just was surprised there wasn’t more information out there. And there’s just such a lack of transparency in so many brands.

And I finally found enough information to feel really good about the pair of denim that they are offering. And it’s made in a factory where Made Well and J Crew make their fair trade denim and Everlane make some denim there too. And so the thing is I don’t have statistics, but I do know that there’s good websites out there that will help you narrow it down. But the thing that we really have to look out for is a company who’s going to maybe make one product, two products that are fair trade, and then that tricks the consumer into believing that their whole line is.

And I want to applaud companies that are taking steps in the right direction. So we would like, they’re hearing us, they’re hearing that we want change in the fashion industry. So they are taking a step in the right direction. But is it enough? They should be you know, or are they on trend to start making all of their clothes fair trade? Or are they going to stop with that because it’s enough to satisfy us? And so that’s just the kind of information that we’ve got to do our research on. And there are some really good websites, and I’m sitting from my computer right now and I actually have this website called the goodtrade.com, and it’s usually up on my computer. And it’s a great way to list fair trade brands. It’s a great way to research if it’s something that you’re not sure about. So I think that we luckily live in a time where we can do the research online, but it’s kind of tricky what they’re doing to us out there.

Susan: And it was called the goodtrade.com. Is that what you said?

Kate: Yeah.

Susan: Okay, we’ve said it twice. And I’ll go ahead and make sure to link that in our show notes as well on our website. That’s really helpful information because you’re absolutely right, I didn’t think about the marketing piece of that. It’s kind of like when, you know, back in the day when they used to say, oh, the calories are lower, it’s lower fat or lower this or whatever, it is. Then we really started making people like list the calorie count. It’s like, oh, I don’t know if I actually really wanted that information. But when you do have the information when it’s sitting there and staring you in the face, sometimes I think you make different choices.

Kate: Yeah.

Susan: So I appreciate that that information is out there. Whether we always want the information or not, I think being educated and being an educated consumer is important.

Kate: Yeah. It is hard to be an educated consumer because we are such generally emotional shoppers; we see something real quick, “Oh, I’ll just grab that.” You know, it’s everywhere, all the marketing, and then the products and there’s so much of it out there. And you’re going to Target for maybe cereal, and there you are with jeans right in front of your eyes. Like it’s hard to say, timeout. I’m going to do my research first, I’ll come back and make this purchase, because everything feels so urgent in fast fashion. It feels like you need to get it because of the sale, you need to get it because it’s going to sell out, you need to get it because it’s what’s on trend today. But when we can slow down fashion, choose classic pieces that are going to last, and then style them. Kimberly and I are really big on styling our pieces, so wear the same shirt 10 different ways, styled differently. And choose your variety through your accessories and through just layering and things like that, where you don’t have to buy, you don’t have to have a closet full of clothes. You could have a really minimal closet and still have very unique and different look within the clothes that you have.

Susan: For sure. Well speaking of your line, let’s get back to your line and talk about some of—you’ve clearly heard about and I don’t even own it yet. You’ve clearly heard me talk about the grandpa sweater enough here. Tell me some of your other favorite pieces that are going to be coming out in this new line that you guys have coming, or this new line that’s out for the fall winter and all that.

Kate: Well, we have a shawl coming out and it is my favorite piece I think ever that we have. It’s pretty simplistic. It’s one piece and it tucks in through a loophole. And it’s so soft but it is so classy, it’s in a gray, and fabric, and I love it. So we did our photoshoot in Europe this summer, so much fun. And we were up in Northern Europe so it was still cold, it was perfect. And we had it layered with dresses and it looked so classy, dresses and heals. We also had it layered with a long sleeve striped T and distressed denim and tennis shoes. And it was so cute like that too. I love when you have a piece that’s maybe unexpectedly dressed down or unexpectedly dressed up. That’s one of my favorite things to do when styling and this shawl is perfect for both. It’s amazing. That is my favorite piece. I could go on and on and on and on.

Susan: That’s awesome. I’m actually looking at it. I’m looking at right now.

Kate: That’s one that’s available now, and then the other items, most of the other items are coming in, hopefully on Sunday—cross our fingers. But we have a lot of like long sleeve tees that are all South African cotton. We’ve got a great top that it’s white long sleeve, it’s longer so it’s going to be great over leggings or jeans and it’s longer in the back with a slit on the side. And that one adorable, and it’s going to be a really great staple piece for our wardrobes.

Susan: Awesome. Well, I am really looking forward to it. Are you guys planning any pop ups around the Dallas Texas area or anywhere around the holidays. I know it’s early so to even ask that is way too much.

Kate: Well, you know, and this is one of those things that live and learn, right? A lot of the big pop ups start taking applications in January of the year before.

Susan: Wow!

Kate: Yeah, in January of this past year, we didn’t even know that we were going to be, how we were going to be marketing our products. We were not sure. I mean, this was how green we were getting started. Are we going to just sell out the first night? Are we going to be all online? Like, we truly didn’t know what to expect. And so a lot of the —we’re working hard on getting into some but I don’t have any definitive dates of pop ups at this point. We are going to do what we can to get into some.

Susan: Awesome. Well, when you have those, shoot them to me, and I will make sure to post those on my social media and share those as well because I can’t wait. And I know that we can order online and I will obviously be doing that as well.

Kate: Yeah.

Susan: Cool. Well, have I missed anything? Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I just totally blew past and didn’t even think about?

Kate: No, I just appreciate the time. I think that if people want to check out the blog to maybe understand about what we’re about, and just get some good tips on, like I said, we love styling. That’s actually my favorite part about all this is the styling piece. So we talk a lot about how we can do that, giving some good ideas, and then just some facts about the industry and understanding it so that we can be educated on why we’re making the choice for fair trade fashion. So we try to just educate along the way.

Susan: I will absolutely link all of this in the show notes. And yes, please check out their blog. It really has some great information. And I just really appreciate you coming back and doing this again. This was so much fun, and I really enjoyed chatting with you. And I hope to see you again soon.

Kate: Yes, absolutely. I enjoyed talking with you too.

Susan: All right. Thanks. Have a great day, Kate.

Kate: You too.

What are your daily habits and practices? How do you get your day off to a good start? I am sharing what works for me today, in hopes of inspiring and encouraging you, to take inventory of what you are doing and ask yourself if it is working.

Links:

Reddit – website

Emily Ley – website

The O Key Ring – website

The Center for Action and Contemplation – website

Life In The Trinity Ministry – website

Moms Demand Action – website

Ruminate This – podcast website

Show Notes:

Transcript:

Marty McDonald quit her corporate job to pursue Boss Women Media full time and it has been a roller coaster ride of ups, downs, highs, lows and everything in between.

Show Notes:

Links:

https://bosswomen.org

Boss Women Media – Instagram

Marty Motivates – Instagram

Transcript:

Welcome: Welcome to “How She Got Here – Conversations with Everyday Extraordinary Women.” It is my belief that every woman has something inside her only she can do. The more we share the stories of other women, who have already discovered their thing, the more it inspires, encourages, and empowers other women to do the same.

Intro: Hey Pod Sisters! I am so excited for you to dig in to this conversation. My guest is Marty McDonald, founder of Boss Women Media. Boss Women Media is an offline/online women’s empowerment community and media company. We talk about what that means as well as what it’s like to leave your corporate job and follow your entrepreneurial goals. Y’all Marty is brave and is a huge risk taker. She is not afraid to go after big things. Boss Women Media is everything we talk about here at How She Got Here! It’s women supporting women. It’s a platform for connection. It’s educational. It’s women celebrating women! It’s awesome and I am here for all of it! Make sure to check out bosswomen.org and follow on Instagram @bosswomenmedia and @martymotivates. And don’t forget to get your tickets to Boss Woman of the Year here in Dallas on September 21st. More of that in our upcoming conversation. So without further ado, here is Marty.

Susan: Well, good morning, Miss Marty, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m really looking forward to this conversation. And getting to know you a little bit better and hearing a little bit about Boss Women Media. For our audience who does not know you or Boss Women Media yet. If you wouldn’t mind, I’d love to open up by sharing a little bit about yourself and about how Boss Women Media came into being.

Marty: Yeah. Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I’m actually kind of dealing with a little bit of like a nasal sinus infection. So I apologize if I sound like I’m talking out of my nose cause I kind of am. But thank you so much. I’m so thrilled to be here. And just to share my story. Boss Women Media is an offline, online women’s empowerment community and Media Company. And what I mean by offline/online. Offline, we create experiences for women to connect through the lens of brands. Online, we create content that women need to thrive in their careers and in their lives. Boss Women Media was started in 2016 as a personal need for me. I was a girl sitting in corporate America feeling so isolated and feeling like where are my people at? Where are the girls at, who are going through the same things that I’m going through?

Navigating salary negotiation, navigating, moving from manager to director, navigating the corporate space of feeling like a complete imposter. Because, oh, by the way, I’m the only black girl that’s in the board room. And I feel like my voice has been assimilated to someone else’s identity. And so I created this movement because I tried several things in Dallas and I couldn’t find anything that quite felt like this was my tribe of people. In 2016 I had a brunch at Neiman Marcus cafe. I had 25 women attend, 15 of them who I had no idea who they were at all. I put it on event bright and I thought, man, this could really be something incredibly powerful, specifically for millennial women and millennial women of color who need an outlet and a space. And so that’s really how we formulated. Since then we have really just been taken sitting at the table and trying to take as many names as possible of owning who we are as a brand. And really showcases how our community that you can create and have whatever you want and desire with a little bit of grit and determination.

I quit my corporate job about a year ago to pursue Boss Women Media full time and it has been a roller coaster ride of ups, downs, highs, lows and everything in between. But I wouldn’t change it because every day I wake up and I say I am ready to kick ass. I am ready to take names and I’m ready to be the voice and advocate that my community needs.

Susan: I love that. That is so exciting. And wow, you have really gone out there now and made this your full time gig. That is really cool. And the, I find that really brave.

Marty: I would say brave more than even cool. Because sometimes we think entrepreneurship is this glamorous, sexy thing. And really to be honest, there isn’t even a blueprint written for entrepreneurship because it’s going to look different for everyone. And so while yes, it felt very cool and liberating to say, hey, I’m quitting and I’m gunna go follow my own passion and pursue my dreams and desires of my heart. It was extremely scary knowing that I wouldn’t have a paycheck coming in every two weeks. And I would have to figure out how to monetize this brand and create it where it was not just a community, but it was a profitable company. And to be completely frank and transparent, I’m still trying to navigate what that looks like on a weekly, on a daily basis. But I know that the need is so desired.

Susan: Marty, I think you’re absolutely right. And I would love to talk a little bit about Boss Women Media specifically because I’m seeing. And I’ve noticed that they all have their own niche, which is what I’m kind of getting at here. Boss Women Media it’s part of like your thing. I’m not saying this right, your brand is not part of anything, but I’m noticing a lot of these types of women’s groups popping up like this. And I’m wondering, if you’ve thought about what makes yours stand out from some of the others.

Marty: Yeah, I mean that’s something that I think about on a daily basis. This morning I was just kind of going back over what is the of the brand? Who are we talking to? What are the talking points, what are the platforms? I feel like what makes our brand stand out the most and the things that I work incredibly hard at making sure that I provide is that one, it is not just a social organization. So where I would like to say come and we’re going to all connect and that’s it. That’s not really who we are. That’s not what we want to even be either. So we’re, yes, our events are very Instagram-able. We want to make sure that we are providing our women with real tools and resources that they can apply. And so, we just ended a five city tour through a partnership with Sugarfina called Black Girl Magic.

And we were very intentional about who we selected as speakers. And the information that we wanted our women to take away. So when you checked into the event, you received a card. Your card might have been blue, green, yellow, pink, purple, but whoever else had that same color card you were to go connect with. Because we know that success is defined by the connections you make and the consistency that you have. And so if you are in a world where you are not connected, you are in a place that leaves you desolate. And it leaves you fighting to figure out resources that if you had the connections for, could be easy to navigate. So we know how important connections are. So that’s one of the first ways we make sure that we bridge of changing the way women connect is our mission statements.

And then secondly, we want to make sure that we’re super intentional on what the information is that we’re giving to our community. So when you’re given a program of what’s gonna happen today on the back of the program, it shows these are the takeaways. This is a place for you to be writing notes. These are the things we want you to take away. How to create a brand. Whether you’re in corporate America, as we identify them as our corporate queens, or if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re kind of a startup position. We want you to identify how to create a brand that stands out, right. How to make sure that you’re fighting for the pay that you deserve. Whether it’s through a partnership opportunity or it’s through you sitting in this space incorporating your up for raise and you don’t know how to find your voice and saying, no, I am worth more.

And so we’re very intentional in the information that we’re giving. But we make it so easy where you know, when you leave, what your action steps are. And I think that’s what makes us a little bit different. And also another thing that makes us different is that while we are not a black woman organization only. Our community is full of millennial women of color. And I would say probably 95% of them are millennial women of color. We are super intentional though about every woman needs to be bringing their voice to the table and sounding off for change to happen, not just one race. So we welcome everyone. We don’t want to isolate anyone, but what’s natural to people is that they congregate with people who look like them, sound like them, identify by them. But we know for change to happen, everybody, everyone’s voice needs to be in the space and at the table.

Susan: You made so many good points there. I kind of want to jump back just a second. I realized after when you were talking about brand for a minute, that you we’re not specifically talking about entrepreneurs creating a brand. You were also talking about the importance of personal brand. Am I correct?

Marty: Yes, that’s correct.

Susan: That is such a good point and so important. And something that back in the day when I was in corporate America, I probably didn’t think about enough. So thank you for highlighting that. I really appreciate that. I think that’s so important. And I think, I don’t know, sometimes I feel like I missed the boat on remembering to do that sometimes. So I appreciate that. And then I really love and admire this niche you’ve created. I think it’s just so needed right now. I think oftentimes we’re highlighting a lot of the changes that are going on in the environment around us. And I know there’s a lot of amazing stuff happening. But at the same time, we just need to keep pushing it forward, pushing it forward.

And I want everybody listening to remember that we’ve just got to keep this work going. We can’t let it stall out. I don’t know why that’s in my brain lately, but I worry about that sometimes. It’s like, oh well, Marty McDonald created this and some of these groups are popping up and it’s already done. I’m like, no, no, no. We got to keep going. We got to keep up with the momentum. I love this connection in real life that you’re, it’s not just online, it is in real life.

I think sometimes in today that’s just so easy to forget. Tell me a little bit, and I don’t know if I asked this beforehand or not. But once an event is over, do you have a way for everybody to kind of reconnect online if maybe they don’t live in the same area? Like say it, cause I know you were on your five city tour, if maybe some people flew into a specific area and then they kind of went back out to maybe an hour away to their own community or something, is there a way for them to stay connected afterwards?

Marty: Yeah. So obviously they can connect through our newsletter that we send out weekly that really has four platforms that we highlight through information. The four platforms are small business, big dreams, the glow up money moment and money matters, and then we highlight boss women. So that’s a way that we kind of package everything together and say, here’s what we’re talking about, here’s what we’re doing. We also have a daily text message that goes out, “Hey girl, hey!” Go ahead and kick-ass today, kick butt today. Like we want you to like just be affirmed. And then we also have social media, but we’re working on something behind the scenes. We’re working on an app right now. Hopefully we will launch in August. And that app is called Boss Connect. And basically if you have come to an event or if you’ve never come to an event.

You can see all of the people who have come to the event based on the app because the app is the check in point. But it lends itself as its own rallying community for women to come together. So say I’m looking for a mentor. I’d go on the app and I see profiles of women that I’m interested in either mentoring or really soliciting help from. I might need a graphic designer. I can go onto this app in this space and look up. And it’s for women by women. And so that’s a space where we’re really trying to intentionally connect with women who don’t necessarily live in a certain area or space or community, but we can just rally together no matter where you’re at.

Susan: That is really, really interesting. And I cannot wait to dive into that once that launches. And you said that’s gonna be an August.

Marty: Yes.

Susan: So that is just around the corner. That is really fun. Oh my gosh. I can’t even imagine the work that goes in behind creating an app.

Marty: Oh my God, me neither. I couldn’t imagine it either until we started exploring it. But it’s been fun and we know that we need it because like, okay, we have LinkedIn. But to be honest LinkedIn is such a very mainstream professional space. And you normally, nine times out of 10 you get on LinkedIn when you’re trying to look for a job. But there’s not a lot of community connections happening on LinkedIn. And so, and it also this space that has been set and created for you not to be able to really share your identity of who you truly are only within this very professional space. And we want our women to be able to showcase their 360 view of themselves. We want to propelled them forward in their careers. And so we’re really excited about this. And we’re so excited because we need to continue, as you said, creating these spaces for women to know that it’s okay.

Susan: Absolutely. I want to jump back just a second. I want to talk a little bit about the five city tour you were on. How did that come about? Is that something that you see like as an annual thing? Cause I’m sure that took a lot out of you. Just share a little bit about that experience and if you plan to do it again, maybe about what you have coming up in the future.

Marty: Yeah, no, totally. So it was probably one of the most ironic thing. So I believe in the power of manifestation and visualizing. And last year I had a vision I was just doing like some white boarding and I said, okay, this is what I want to do for Boss in 2019. I wanted to go on a tour, but I had no idea who I was going to do the tour with. I just knew that we needed to be reaching and touching more women. That we could not be identified just as this Dallas box brand. Though we have tremendous drive to continue to make just in the Dallas area. It was just very important for me not to get stuck in a box. And so as I’m writing down what that looks like I had wrote down Target. I’m gonna pitch Target and we’re going to do a five city tour with Target.

We’re going to do like these mini branches and target. And I sent them the pitch. They said that I didn’t have capacity for it. And in true Marty fashion I know does not mean no to me. I just keep hustling until I figure out who’s gonna say yes. And so I didn’t necessarily know who my next like target person or brand was. But I was in L.A. and I went to a conference called Girl Boss Rally. And I went into to this breakout session. And the CEO of Sugarfina was sitting on the panel where she was basically talking about how they’ve created the Sugarfina brand, which I think is the most beautiful brand. And it’s like Tiffany and Company for candy really. And so I’m listening to her talk about how they create these taboo gummy bears. And I was like, oh, that’s interesting.

Fast forward and my brain went to. I had just read this Nielsen data report that said. Or not fast forward rewind, my brain was going. I just read this Nielsen data report. That says black girl magic is real. And it talks about the buying power and behavior of black women. And how by 2021, there’ll be the highest spending consumer out of any demographics based off the disposable income that they have. So me having a background in marketing and working in marketing before. I’m like, are brands paying attention to this? Because I feel like black women are not the target audience for any brand right now. Yet alone the secondary target audience. But we are a spending consumer of brands. And the lady continues to talk about how they created a green juice gummy for April fool’s, end of April fool’s joke.

Some people were like, we want it. So I was like sitting there in my seat thinking I’m going to go up to her afterwards and say, hey, you should create a gummy called black girl magic. So I proceed to go up to her afterwards. And I introduced myself and I asked her, I said, hey, have you ever heard of black magic? She looks at me and she’s like, what can I even say this? Like, what are you talking about? And I proceed to tell her black girl magic is the buying power behavior of women. And it’s a rallying call for women to come together. And you should create this gummy and we should do a collaboration. And I should do a five city tour in Sugarfina locations throughout the U.S.. And with mini pop-up conferences around the power of black girl magic.

So she tells me, send me an email at Sugarfina. So I thought, okay, well she probably isn’t taking me seriously number one, but I have to show her how serious I am. I go home, the conference was in LA. I go back to Dallas. I create this powerful pitch deck. I put all of the data in it of how she’s not capitalizing off of this secondary target audience that she needs for her brand. It took her three weeks to respond. I was on a phone call with her. It took her five weeks to respond after the phone call to say, yes, we want to move forward with this. And we kicked off the tour in February in LA.

Susan: Wow. That’s really, that’s so powerful. That’s such a powerful story. Now I have a question. Within those three weeks and five weeks span, were you really trying to reconnect with her or did you just let it sit?

Marty: I did a connection point I think two times within both spans. And the connection that I sent her back was more data. So when I would reach back out for her. It was more data. How around do you realize that 2,400 women owned businesses were started in 2018? Out of the 2,400 65% of them were African American women. They need to be in your store to hear these stories. And so it was more me really reiterating data to make her make a decision versus the a motion of how she needed to make the decision.

Susan: I like how you said that data versus emotion. And I love how you were able to use the skills you already had and repurpose them, if you will, into what you’re doing now. That’s something we talk about a lot is looking at the skills you already have and going forward. Like if you want to do something different, if you’re looking for something different, how you can repurpose those. And it sounds like you have done just that and I really admire that. Tell me, share with us a little bit how the event went. What did Sugarfina think? And I don’t mean to like hone in on just this one thing, but I think a lot of women would be so hesitant to go after such a big name.

Marty: Yeah. The crazy part is that I don’t ever want to take small risks. So I had a friend who recently had kind of sent me an Instagram DM and of some other girl and was like, well, she’s talking about sponsorships and she’s creating a course for that. You should do that. I’m like, oh, they’re small potatoes. That’s not my desire. I want to go after the biggest things that I can imagine. So to me, if your risks are not scary and don’t make you a little bit hesitant, you might not be taking a big enough risk. And so I think that that’s important for us to just stop playing small on ourselves. Because when we worked for brands, we don’t play small. We’re all working for organizations. We don’t play small. So why are we playing small in our lives?

So I think that that’s really important. But as far as the tour, the tour sold out in every single city, which to me made me realize how much more of a need that this is. We first started in LA. And to be honest, when we started in LA, I think the Sugarfina brand was a little bit taken back. Because I don’t think they thought, oh no, this is really happening. This is a production and we’re creating this space. And so I think that they saw the value after we had this big media that picked it up. Pop Sugar picked it up, Forbes picks it up, and we had a lot of big media that picked up the event. But in the sense of the women. I think that the women were such an awe of the fact that we had created this space for them. And creating experiences through those lens of brand. Because that’s what we said, that’s our strategy.

And so we had some of this speakers that were so overwhelmed by it in such a positive manner. I mean I can’t even lie about this. They had such a great time that some of the speaker’s honorarium at the end of the event on some stops, they told me not to worry about it. Because they were just so happy to be in a space where they could lend their voice and to women that looked like them. And for women that could truly utilize those types of resources. So that just speaks volumes of really what we were going after and what we were set after doing. The topics for each tour were pretty much the same but the voices behind them were so different. And we had people from the VP of Coca Cola on a panel to the largest influencers in the world. And we just were just excited to be able to be in this space with women. Some of our speakers were taken back by the fact that, we dubbed the tour black girl magic. And that there was a ton of black girls filled in space. And I think that that just goes to show we have so much work to still do to make people feel comfortable around people who do not look like them, sound like them, or came from where they came from.

Susan: We do have so much work to do. And I feel like it’s one of those things. Sometimes I feel like we’ve come so far and I feel like we have on some levels, but then we just have so much further to go and I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I try not to look at it as well, why aren’t we there yet? Sometimes I do, but then sometimes I think, well, what an honor that it is to be like, this is our life’s work. Like I just can’t imagine anything else I’d rather be doing than trying to make this world a better place for my kids. So if we can do this and just continue pushing it forward and continue accomplishing these, these goals, then I just kind of, I can’t wait to see what world that creates for our kids. I really can’t.

You’re saying that just kind of took my breath away a little bit in a good way. And now I’ve kind of lost my train of thought. One of the things, one of the things that I loved that you said, is you were bringing women together and they realized even some of the speakers were so excited to lend their voice to it because their voice mattered. And I think I am not a woman of color. I am a woman and I can’t, I know what it’s like just being a regular white woman. So I can’t imagine what it’s like to be in your shoes. And I just, I really appreciate what you’re doing. It’s such a, wow, it’s just such an, an honor to speak with you this morning. And I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with me. And share this story. It just blows me away. Sarah was so good, to connect us. I’m just so excited to talk with you. This has been awesome so far. One of the things that you kind of, when you started talking about it, I kind of started having sweats a little bit, was you said we need to stop playing small. Guilty as charged. Tell us, is that just something, because some people I think are more, are better naturally to push for bigger and better and I can’t, it seems like you might just be one of those people who are good at pushing those boundaries. Do you ever get scared?

Marty: Oh my God. Oh my God. Yes. Okay. So I’ll give you an example. This morning I was sitting on my patio drinking my coffee, reading my devotional, and I know that there’s this, this project that I, I have an opportunity to work on. While I was sitting there and I’m reading my devotional, my prayer was God scares me. But what you’re, what you’re asking me to go do, the vision that you’ve given me to go do is the scariest thing I’ve ever done. And I don’t have any resources to make this happen. So I need to completely lean into you. And I think that when you take it from that approach or whatever your faith is, whatever keeps you grounded, allows you to lean into that. And who your community is. Women who are pouring into you, your husband, your friends, whoever that is, whatever that may look like, to help you, you know, reinforced that you can do it.

But in the same sense I have always been just fearless, I was a fearless child. And I was a fearless child because I’m like some people who might’ve grown up with a ton of resources I never did. And I grew up in a household where my mom was domestically abused and I stepped in to be her mother. And I’ve always just been super strong and passionate and I always went after what I wanted. Because I’ve never wanted myself to be in a situation where I was abused. Whether that was physically or at a mental capacity, at an abuse state of not thinking that I’m capable of going after whatever I want, whatever I desire. And so for me the reason why I’m so gutsy is because I feel like if I don’t do it, someone else will do it.

And if I’ve been given a vision, I believe that God is the provisionary of that and I need to go after it. Like I would anything in life. I’m full force so I don’t play small. And so that I can really showcase the other women more importantly that they cannot forfeit. They don’t have the luxury of playing small. We don’t have the luxury as women to play small right now. There’s a women’s movement happening that’s so powerful. We don’t have the luxury or the time to play small, there’s work to be done. And I want to make sure that I’m leaving a legacy to my unborn children. That during this time, during this pivotal moment in history that their mother was able to truly make rain happen, make change happen and be a trailblazer and a change maker, for the next generation to come.

Susan: That is such a good point. One of the things before I started the podcast and when I was really like starting to think about this and what this would look like. I was talking to my husband about it one night and I said, you know, I don’t know. I said, my son, you know, he was two at the time. I was like, I’m really ready to go back and do something, but if I do this, this is going to be like a big thing. This is going to take a lot of time. And I’m willing to put that in. But am I taking something away from him? And Stephen looked at me and he said, Susan, he said, what? What are you going to tell Will when he’s older about what you did during this movement?

Marty: Yeah.

Susan: And I was like, and when he said that I was, I knew that I had to do it. It was one of those things. I couldn’t tell him. Sorry, mom thought it was more and not that raising your children isn’t important. It is so important. But this was something for me. I wanted to be able to tell Will, yes. Oh, and I said his name. I’ll bleep that out. I wanted to be able to tell my son, yes, Mommy did take time away, but when she did, this is why. And it was important. So I really appreciate you pointing that out. It’s so important. One of the things that I wanted to ask you. Starting something like this is hard. It’s hard going out on your own. It’s hard starting your own thing. And I’m sure you have days where you feel like you’re beating your head against a wall. Where do you go when you need and where do you go for your inspiration? What helps inspire you to keep going?

Marty: Yeah. It’s a couple of things. To me, it’s so important if I’m a leader that I continue to grow. And leaders who do not not grow, cannot develop, and I just believe that. And so for me, I make sure that I do a conference every year. Last year I did Girl Boss Rally this year I just did the focus leader, Michael Hyatt conference. That was just so incredibly powerful. I’m actually right now sitting in front of Indie Beauty Expo in Dallas and I’m about to go walk the expo because it gives me inspiration on set design and production. So I’m constantly pouring in in the most taboo ways. That may not necessarily seem completely aligns with exactly what I’m doing. But I try to find inspiration in various ways. And so I think it’s important that what you’re reading, what you’re looking at on TV all plays a part into how you pour into yourself.

On days when I feel like I’m a complete loser, I’m a failure. What did I do? Why did I quit my job? Because I do have those moments. I do have those days. I go work out or the best therapy for me is watching Ellen. She just makes me feel good. And so I think it’s different for everyone, but you do have to find the thing that lights the fire under you. The thing that makes you feels like, because I have this, I can go do this. I’m constantly looking for those types of things that I can pour into my soul. So that I can execute. What I’m doing is pouring into other people and it can become very draining if no one ever poured into me. So I have to find ways to fill my cup so that I’m full when I’m ready to give to others.

Susan: That is so important and I’m really glad you emphasized that. As women we really have to do that. And I don’t think we’re always good at it. I’m not. I want to be respectful of your time, but I want to ask you before we go. I want to ask you, what is it either from Boss Women Media or just maybe you’re speaking on your own somewhere at a conference or something. Because I could totally see you doing that if you haven’t done it already. What is it that you want women to know about themselves?

Marty: I want women to know that they are capable of more and more and when you don’t think that you have capacity for more, think again. I want women to know that no matter how you grew up or where you came from, that anything is possible. And I want women to know that there are women rallying around them who want them to win. But if you hadn’t found that woman yet who is rallying for you, keep looking for her, she will come. And most importantly, I want women to know that they can cultivate the career and life of their dreams with a little bit of grit, determination, and most importantly, consistency every single day. The days that when they get knocked down, they stay consistent. The days when they have the highest of highs, they stay consistent. And I think that that is the most important key for them. Having whatever the success that they desire is if they stay consistent.

Susan: Yep. That’s all I got for that. Yep! That is so well said. So well said. Okay. Marty, tell us where we can find you online. I am here for everything that you are doing. I love it. I love the ideas. I love the idea of you doing these tours. This is phenomenal and I think it’s great and I think it is so, so needed, but it sounds like you already know that since it sold out the last time you did it. Tell us where we can find you online. Tell us anything about events coming up. And then I’ll make sure to link all of this on our website when it goes live.

Marty: Yeah, so our website is bosswomen.org. You can find us on Instagram at bosswomenmedia. You could find my personal brand on Instagram, Marty Motivates. And we do have our largest event coming up September the 21st its Boss Woman of the Year. It’ll be at the W Hotel in Dallas on the 33rd floor. We’re super excited about it. We’ll have 500 plus women, gathering together for an evening summit on celebrating what we call our Boss Women of the Year in three categories, the boss entrepreneur, the boss corporate queen, and the boss mom. And celebrating our five women that will be in a space to let them know. If these women can do it so can you. So I would love for your community to check that out as well.

Susan: I love those categories. That’s awesome entrepreneur mom. Like that’s so cool. And so needed, so needed. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing with me today. I really, really appreciate it.

Marty: Yes, thank you so much. I so appreciate it and thank you for letting me speak my authentic truth. I appreciate that.

Outro:Hey Pod Sisters, thanks so much for joining me today. If you’re enjoying this podcast, head on over to iTunes or your favorite podcast app and hit subscribe. And while you’re there, I’d really appreciate it if you would rate and review it in order to make it easier for others to find. We also have a private Facebook group, the How She Got Here community page and would love to have you join us there to continue the conversation on today’s episode, as well as any other fun How She Got Here content. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart for listening. I’ll see ya soon.